Drs. Jeanne and Kelley welcome Acey Holmes, a dynamic speaker, consultant, and advocate for using play and flow to improve work and life. Acey shares her personal journey of burnout and how she discovered the importance of play in avoiding burnout. She discusses the phases of play and how they impact the brain and body.
Drs. Jeanne and Kelley welcome Acey Holmes, a dynamic speaker, consultant, and advocate for using play and flow to improve work and life. Acey shares her personal journey of burnout and how she discovered the importance of play in avoiding burnout. She discusses the phases of play and how they impact the brain and body. We look at the historical shift away from play and the cultural factors that discourage play in adulthood.
Key Takeaways
Acey Holmes Links
Ted Talk | Website | LinkedIn | Instagram
Hello and welcome to Sensitivity Doctors. We are so excited about our guest today and our topic is going to be as fun as you can imagine. It's all about play.
jeanne (00:18.669)
Oh, this is going to be such a great topic. I'm Jean, this is Dr. Kelly, and we're here to host you today with the amazing AC Homes. So if you're interested in this episode, stay tuned.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (00:20.941)
Thank you.
Dr. Kelley (02:05.006)
Okay, all righty. I am so excited to introduce A .C. Holmes, our guest today, who is a dynamic speaker, consultant, and advocate for using play and flow to improve work and life. With a background in education and communication sciences, she turns complex neuroscience into engaging and practical advice. Her workshops and consulting help teams boost creativity, connection,
and morale with easy to apply strategies. She is the founder of Bored Less, which is an innovative company with a mission to revolutionize corporate cultures and employee experience. AC's most recent Ted Talk, Play the Cure for Burnout was recently released and we are thrilled to have her here to learn all about key strategies, ways to use play to avoid burnout, especially for highly sensitive people. And we just can't wait to get started. So welcome AC.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (03:03.805)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.
Dr. Kelley (03:04.942)
Yes. And I say most recent TED Talk because did you do more than one? I think I found a second.
jeanne (03:05.485)
You
jeanne (03:10.957)
Oh wow.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (03:11.773)
So there's like little baby Ted talks kind of in the HR world. It's called disrupt HR. Uh, and then there's that platform is based on a program called it ignite talks, which both exist in a lot of cities around the world. So if you've ever wanted to like practice being on stage, give disrupt HR and ignite talks a chance. They are five minutes long max. They will boot you off the stage. Um, and then there's.
Dr. Kelley (03:14.942)
Okay.
jeanne (03:19.285)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (03:28.428)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (03:39.15)
Oh wow.
jeanne (03:40.237)
I won't.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (03:41.981)
You have 20 slides that auto advance every 15 seconds. So it's a neat little challenge. So I've done a couple of this.
Dr. Kelley (03:49.166)
I am loving that because a TED Talk is on my bucket list, admittedly. So I will have to look into that. Thank you. So fun. So you do have the...
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (03:55.545)
Yeah.
jeanne (03:59.597)
Oh yeah, and you would be great on a TED Talk. You would be amazing on a TED Talk. You are already amazing on a TED Talk. I watched your TED Talks, but...
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (04:03.677)
You would be Amelia. Yeah. Yeah, Amelia. I agree, Jeanne. Amelia, you'd be amazing.
Dr. Kelley (04:04.11)
Oh, you mean me. It's funny sometimes in sessions, if I go on too much of a tangent about psychoeducational things, I will look at my client and go, and now the end of my TED talk. But Acy, you have a really interesting background. You did not start in the arena you're in now. So how did that happen?
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (04:20.573)
And the conclusion.
jeanne (04:20.589)
Hahaha!
Dr. Kelley (04:32.75)
And I do believe it also had a little bit of a journey with burnout. So I'd love for you to unpack that for us.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (04:40.157)
Yeah, so I was in the, what I have been calling recently, the perfect intersection of education and healthcare. And that has been what it has been in America for the past five, 10 years. It was really hard. I was a home health speech pathologist working with kids, have done that for 20 years and loved it. As I say in my Ted talk, until I didn't. Burnout kind of snuck up on me because of how much I really had loved.
my career for so long and it was rewarding and it was fairly autonomous and yeah, it was just really great until it wasn't. And then kind of pivoting into this role is where I began to self -reflect and realize where that burnout had come from, which was just a lack of play for myself, even though I was playing for a living on the floor with little kids. So it's an interesting.
jeanne (05:17.821)
Thank you.
jeanne (05:32.329)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (05:38.062)
Right.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (05:40.037)
insight for me.
jeanne (05:41.837)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (05:42.03)
curious and I had not planned on asking this but I'm thinking as a listener I would want to know how do you know if you're experiencing burnout?
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (05:51.677)
I think, sure, yeah, different for everybody, but I think probably your biggest sign is that something shifts in what you care about. So like I said, I really, I mean, I use, if you look back at my Facebook memories, you know, there are days where I was posting, it's six a .m. in the morning and I'm so excited to go to work. And I'm,
Dr. Kelley (05:51.79)
And I'm sure it's deeply personal, but...
Dr. Kelley (06:16.972)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (06:29.358)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (06:32.029)
just so great and
I was very good at it. Also, I just really always had been. So that's one of those things too, where you get like, why wouldn't you enjoy this if you're so good at it? And it just, and this was before the pandemic too, when I started to wake up and realize, oh no, I'm feeling drained. I feel exhausted when I'm not, you know, overexerting myself really, because the job wasn't difficult in itself.
Dr. Kelley (06:37.236)
Hehehehe.
jeanne (06:38.029)
Hahaha.
jeanne (06:45.397)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Dr. Kelley (06:54.894)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (07:06.109)
which then leads into I wasn't feeling challenged. I also wasn't seeing, so working with little kids, again, amazing, but in the realm of home healthcare, they go to school and they stop seeing me. So then I have no idea if anything I ever did made a difference in their life. So sometimes you would see like a light bulb moment or whatnot, but there was a lot of, that was probably helpful.
Dr. Kelley (07:09.454)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (07:18.114)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (07:32.27)
Yeah. Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (07:34.653)
just sort of a lot of unknown. It was not great. It was not great. It was pretty bad. So I think to realize when you notice a shift in something that was nice or going really well before and then suddenly you almost hate it, that can be a big sign. Exhaustion is usually another good sign too.
jeanne (07:34.765)
That must have been hard for you though. That must have been really hard. Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (07:53.902)
Yeah.
jeanne (07:54.413)
him.
Dr. Kelley (08:00.078)
I think that's a really key point to pull out that you said if you stop caring about something you did care deeply about before.
jeanne (08:09.037)
That was the same for me as well when I hit burnout, because I was in the human rights space and I was very deeply passionate about it. And all of a sudden I found myself in this space where I didn't want to get up in the morning. Like I was so demotivated. It felt like even the smallest thing I had to do that I usually liked doing, I just hated. I just, I just couldn't, it was such fatigue. And then you start wondering, wait,
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (08:09.787)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (08:38.253)
What has happened here? This...
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (08:39.801)
Jean, I'm curious if you noticed it carry over into your personal life because I think there's probably people listening going, isn't that what they say about depression? Like you're supposed to notice depression, like suddenly you don't care about the things you used to, but my, at first anyways, if you let the burnout go too long, it will transfer. But I was, everything about my personal life I still enjoyed. I was still doing the things that I like to do. I was being with friends, I was being very social.
jeanne (08:46.957)
Phew.
jeanne (08:52.173)
Mm.
jeanne (09:04.813)
Hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (09:07.613)
But it was specific for me to work. I'm curious if it was that for you, Jean.
jeanne (09:10.125)
Yeah. In that instance, yes. So the first time, yes. But I was in a position where I was traveling maybe between 10 and 12 times a month. I was almost never sleeping at home. It was just too much. I was so demotivated. I was so fatigued.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (09:15.229)
Yeah. Right.
Dr. Kelley (09:17.39)
Heheheheh
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (09:26.803)
Oh.
Dr. Kelley (09:29.902)
a lot.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (09:38.627)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
jeanne (09:38.933)
But I love being home and I love doing the things that I love doing with my family. Yeah, but just from this job that I always used to love, that I was so passionate about, all of a sudden just didn't keep me warm and fuzzy.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (09:52.061)
Sing. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (09:52.686)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (09:57.39)
And that's where play came in for you, where, and I love anyone who cares deeply about something and dives into the research. And I love how you dove into the research to break down things that I've never even heard about play. So I would love if you could unpack for us the phases of play and how they impact the brain and body so that as we talk about,
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (10:06.045)
Hahaha!
jeanne (10:06.635)
Hmm.
jeanne (10:16.717)
you
Dr. Kelley (10:22.894)
how this impacts generalized burnout and burnout for highly sensitive folks, we all kind of are on the same page about what's happening with our bodies.
jeanne (10:32.461)
Mm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (10:32.893)
Sure. Yeah, I feel lucky because when I decided to make this pivot, there were people in, lucky is luck, right? Like what is luck? I put myself in position. I tried to, right, I tried to get involved with the toy industry, which is why these people were in my life. Anyway, I was watching other people already take play outside of Just With Kids.
Dr. Kelley (10:46.99)
fortunate.
Dr. Kelley (11:01.87)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (11:02.045)
So I was seeing that happen and I was able to draw inspiration from each of them and happened very early on in my studies of what am I gonna do with this? I know what I wanna do, how do I do it? Who's gonna pay for this? How do we do this? And that's where I feel fortunate that I rediscovered Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, flow, the book.
Dr. Kelley (11:18.254)
Heheheheh.
Dr. Kelley (11:29.134)
Okay. Mm -hmm.
jeanne (11:29.963)
Oh, that's the flow state? It's okay.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (11:32.093)
Yeah, yeah. So he is considered the father of Flo. And when I started rereading this, coupled with everything I've ever been, I was lucky in my undergrad and graduate career that I was trained that play was important for children. So I knew a lot about what it did for the brain and development and that kind of thing. Not everything they taught was right. That's a different story. But.
Dr. Kelley (11:50.828)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (11:56.244)
Hehehehe
jeanne (11:59.949)
Mm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (12:01.553)
When I started reading this, I started to really see a lot of overlaps. And so there are, I always feel like I'm gonna get this backwards. Because I'm not a math person, this is a math thing. All flow is play, but not all play is flow. So that's like a lot. Okay, yeah. Well, I was worried I'm gonna get it backwards, but that's the right way. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Kelley (12:06.06)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (12:13.55)
Hehehe.
Dr. Kelley (12:17.39)
you
Okay. Yeah.
jeanne (12:20.205)
Oh, you did that awesome. That was perfect.
Dr. Kelley (12:26.318)
That's like me, the six and a half dozen eggs in the egg thing with whatever that's saying is. It's probably an American saying, Jean. Do you know what it is, AC, with the eggs? What is that saying?
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (12:31.741)
Yeah, like which way is it?
jeanne (12:32.203)
Wait, what? Oh, it's the thing about, huh?
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (12:36.349)
Oh, and she's like, huh? Eggs. So it's six to a dozen half, no, see, I don't know, half eggs to another. Six to another. But are eggs even in it? But exactly, this much, yes. That's the point. Now my husband's walking upstairs saying it exactly, correctly. It's just like.
Dr. Kelley (12:45.448)
See?
jeanne (12:45.773)
Oh, oh, the half a dozen of the one is something of the other. I think.
Dr. Kelley (12:52.928)
Oh, yeah. Who knows? Yes. Yes. But flow, back to flow.
jeanne (12:55.253)
Okay.
Dr. Kelley (13:03.318)
Oh, thank you.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (13:04.349)
It's six to one, half dozen to another. Boom. Thank you, Mike. Anyway, so all flow is play, not all play is flow. But there's just, there was just so much overlap to me. And the thing is there's not a lot of research, especially not recent research on adults being playful or what play means for adults or what play really is for adults. There's a ton out there about children.
jeanne (13:06.349)
Okay.
Dr. Kelley (13:17.398)
Hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (13:33.533)
about animals, one of my favorite researchers. I'm pretty sure I'm not saying his name right. Jock Ponskep, skep, skeep. Probably it's J -A -A -K, Jock maybe. You could call him the rat tickler. That's what a lot, yeah. That's what a lot of his research was on was tickling rats. So then he did a lot of research on the play because.
jeanne (13:38.587)
Is this Swedish?
jeanne (13:46.285)
J -A -A -K, yeah, jock, yeah.
Dr. Kelley (13:46.862)
Hmm. The rat tickler.
Dr. Kelley (14:03.278)
That's so funny.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (14:03.399)
Laughter, but that's what he's maybe most well known for is tickling rats. Uh, the whole lab of it, but so that kind of research is there, but it's animals, you know, obviously we can make a lot of translatable, uh, take interpretations, but there's just not a lot directly on adults. Fortunately, it really is starting to come out. So like my website is playfulworkdesign .com. And if you Google that,
Dr. Kelley (14:22.934)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (14:30.781)
I don't come up first. Oh no, SEO nightmare. And I'm okay with it because white papers come up first. So people are studying playful work design from like a job crafting standpoint. I have to cough real bad, sorry.
Dr. Kelley (14:33.1)
Hehehe. Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (14:44.88)
If you need to get water, go for it. We can edit this.
jeanne (14:45.185)
Yeah, go for it.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (14:54.749)
Okay.
jeanne (14:58.893)
Are you okay?
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (15:00.381)
Yeah, I just swallowed funny. No, I think, yeah, I'm good. Okay, now I'm good. It's gone. Okay, rat tickler, what's last thing I said? Job crafting, yes. Yeah, so the research isn't out there, but I was happy to find that the flow has so much overlap because there's a ton of research on that. So I started to take what Jock Ponskep, Gokong Gunas,
Dr. Kelley (15:00.59)
Do you need water? Do you have something to drink? Okay.
Dr. Kelley (15:09.272)
forfeit the phases of play, yes.
jeanne (15:14.253)
you
jeanne (15:26.317)
Mm
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (15:29.213)
Peter Gray, Stuart Brown, the Lego Foundation actually does a lot of third party research on just play, not their toys, that has a lot of great information. So I took all of that, compared it to Flow, and then found these starting to come out more playful work design. There's a researcher named Renee Proyer who's doing studies on personality science, and his focus.
Dr. Kelley (15:32.702)
Oh, cool.
jeanne (15:54.317)
you
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (15:55.453)
for a while anyway, I hope he continues, is adult playfulness and what that means. So I put it all together and made, so I have a definition of play, it's a functional operational definition of play, and then deep, deep into my studies of this, I came across the work of Herbert Benson, who was a cardiologist who was studied by a journalist named Steven Kotler.
Dr. Kelley (15:58.446)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (16:03.31)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (16:17.974)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (16:24.317)
who has really brought out this concept of flow being a cycle and not just a state. And that's also a lot of where the play, flow being play comes into it, is this concept of the cycle. So eight characteristics of play are, here's what happens when I list things, I forget one. It might be different every time. I could list two things, I'll forget one. Eight things, I'm gonna tell you seven. And then in 10 minutes, I'm gonna go, oh, the eighth one.
Dr. Kelley (16:29.418)
Okay.
jeanne (16:36.229)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (16:41.554)
Me too. Me too. Every time.
jeanne (16:51.853)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (16:52.581)
We'll see what we get through. So play is personal, play is joyful, play is beneficial, play is iterative. You have to be able to change it a little bit each time. Play is optional. Now I now make my living on helping people play at work. So sometimes the things that we're doing and adding play or turning playful are not always optional, but some aspect of it can be how we do it, when we do it.
Dr. Kelley (16:56.64)
Oh, interesting.
Dr. Kelley (17:19.596)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (17:23.005)
Also forced fun is never fun. So leaders out there, please, if you remember nothing else from this, forced fun is never fun. Remember that, right? I got to it. Oh, see, I got off my list. All right. Personal, joyful, beneficial, iterative, optional, seemingly purposeless. So lots of play have really cool outcomes, like amazing, but whatever the outcomes are can't be the reason we're doing it.
Dr. Kelley (17:24.59)
and
Dr. Kelley (17:29.134)
Hehehe.
jeanne (17:30.285)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (17:44.333)
you
Dr. Kelley (17:47.756)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (17:52.282)
Hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (17:53.661)
We have to be playing for the sake of the play itself. That lends in closely to seventh characteristic, which is, maybe that's the eighth, intrinsically motivating. It's not, it's the seventh. Intrinsically motivating. So we can't be doing this for external validation or a reward. Again, we might get it, but that's not the reason we're doing it. And then intrinsic motivation is a little bit deeper than just,
jeanne (17:56.653)
you
jeanne (18:08.909)
you
Dr. Kelley (18:11.436)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (18:17.634)
Gotcha.
Dr. Kelley (18:22.306)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (18:22.749)
not external, so it needs to actually hold some sort of meaning to who we are at our core. If you look up the real definitions, extrinsic versus intrinsic. And then the eighth one, a catamal, is actively engaging. And this trips up people a little bit because a lot of people, modern adults, will say reading is my play, but that's not physical. But it doesn't have to be physically engaging. It can be cognitively.
jeanne (18:27.213)
you
Dr. Kelley (18:28.748)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (18:33.613)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (18:37.236)
Yay.
jeanne (18:45.727)
you
Dr. Kelley (18:50.782)
Mm -hmm. Oh, I love that.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (18:52.157)
or mentally engaging. And then there's like a bonus one, which is socially interactive, because if you don't want it to be socially interactive, then adding a social component will backfire. But if you like the play to be social, then we talk about oxytocin and it kind of levels up the benefits. So that's play.
jeanne (19:09.549)
Mm. Mm.
Dr. Kelley (19:10.062)
Awesome. That is, it's funny as I was listening, I was thinking about things that I love to do. I was mentioning earlier how I take virtual piano lessons. And so I was trying to think in my head, does it match all of those things? And I mean, it really does. It doesn't feel like work, even though I think when I look back into my childhood, when I was taking clarinet, which I did not enjoy, it...
jeanne (19:21.165)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (19:37.437)
Right.
Dr. Kelley (19:37.582)
It was required. There were all these things that didn't make it play, whereas now piano has no bearing on my livelihood other than just to be fun. Mm -hmm. What about you, Jean?
jeanne (19:47.013)
Mm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (19:47.131)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. You already have a play. That's all.
jeanne (19:54.507)
I'm thinking about things that I do to play and this is actually a deep regression because my therapist was asking me this the other day, like, what do you do for yourself just to play? And I was like, well, I love to meditate. And she's like, yeah, but you do that because of your anxiety. So what do you do just to enjoy? I'm like, well, I exercise every day. And she's like, yes, but again, like you do this to be healthy and to...
Dr. Kelley (20:06.284)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (20:20.429)
So I'm thinking, I'm thinking about it. I used to play guitar. I love guitar. And I kind of lost motivation with that, with this like whole journey, but I'm slowly getting back into that and I'm slowly finding some stuff. But this is such a great episode because it's making me think also like, what do I do just to enjoy where I'm not like looking after somebody or figuring something out or.
Dr. Kelley (20:25.644)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (20:49.613)
making sure everything is working. And it feels so silly, a silly question that you can easily answer, but then when you think about it, it's pretty hard.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (21:03.293)
So it's really common. I get way more conversations like what you were saying, Jean, than somebody, oh, this is what I do for play. Modern adults, average working adult especially, is, I mean, we've just been so far removed from play and ourselves for so long that it's really common. You are definitely not the only one, Jean, at all. Yeah.
jeanne (21:13.865)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (21:22.286)
Hmm.
jeanne (21:22.389)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (21:28.078)
Mm -hmm. But that brings up a really good point about why it is so crucial for adults. And I'm also curious of your thoughts on why culturally we don't encourage it enough. And it makes me think of my art therapy clients, where when I started this work, I worked with primarily children and it was an easy sell. You know, art therapy, yeah, art therapy was, I did it all the time.
jeanne (21:28.365)
Ah!
jeanne (21:51.757)
you
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (21:52.513)
Yep. Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (21:57.806)
And now I find with my adults, especially when I'm first working with them, unless they come for art therapy, they are not interested. They have to almost know me and have been working with me for so long to feel like it's okay to go there. Because the art therapy is not supposed to be a product, it's a process and it can be playful.
jeanne (22:05.197)
Thank you.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (22:08.699)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (22:09.709)
you
jeanne (22:18.829)
Hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (22:19.229)
Absolutely. So we, I will try to be brief on this because there's a lot. So it started with the farming communities. That's how far back it goes for like humanity. So, right? Yeah. So the hunters and gatherers spent up to 50 % of their daylit hours in leisure activities. Just doing whatever they wanted to do. And I mean, if you...
Dr. Kelley (22:29.746)
Wow, that in time, what is it? The time thing, daylight savings?
jeanne (22:35.437)
Ha ha!
jeanne (22:40.747)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (22:48.989)
I would like, before I read the, so, well. So when we moved to farming communities, we had to start following a schedule because what are the seasons doing, what time of day is it, we have to do certain things at certain times, and it limited our nomadic exploration because we had to be in our water and certain soil. So hunters and gatherers, go where you want, when you want.
jeanne (22:49.677)
What would this involve though? Throwing rocks or?
Dr. Kelley (22:52.974)
You
Dr. Kelley (23:12.554)
Hmm
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (23:17.693)
farming community, we're starting to place restrictions about living and being human and surviving. And then the industrial revolution, hello, children in factories six days a week. Right, so that moved through and then I mentioned before that everything they taught us in school is not right. They used to tell us that our brains, our prefrontal cortex, actually I'm curious if you guys were taught this, that our prefrontal cortex was fully matured around your mid -20s. That.
jeanne (23:22.445)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (23:27.596)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (23:46.862)
I've heard variations related to neurodiversity where it does take longer. Right. Right, absolutely.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (23:48.539)
Cough
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (23:52.261)
So yeah, but that's brand new stuff. Like 10, 15 years ago, they were like 25, that's it, good luck. If you're right, yeah, yeah. And if you weren't well -developed at that point, good luck being an adult, which was really wrong. So then you think, well, why bother playing? Because the thing about play is that that part of our brain does not change over our lifespan. And as you guys know, and probably many of your listeners know, our
Dr. Kelley (23:58.51)
Yeah, 26 for boys.
Dr. Kelley (24:05.486)
Right.
jeanne (24:18.201)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (24:21.469)
brains are very efficient, it doesn't hold on to things that we don't need. Infants, newborns are born with a number of reflexes that they don't keep, the brain integrates it, we don't need that anymore. The circuitry for play is the same across our lifespan. So when we're in play, those eight characteristics, when we're doing that, experiencing that kind of activity, the neurochemistry that happens is the same for a six -year -old to us.
Dr. Kelley (24:22.7)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (24:33.901)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (24:36.908)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (24:50.382)
Oh, and it doesn't, it doesn't become phased out. It's always available. Is that what you're saying? Oh, okay.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (24:50.877)
The difference is...
jeanne (24:52.653)
you
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (24:55.205)
Mm -mm, always there, mm -hmm, yeah. So, and then another tricky part is that prefrontal cortex is there getting in the way because that's our, like our CEO of our brain, right? It's making, it's following rules and making harder decisions and maybe you shouldn't do that, maybe you should do this. Instead, some of our inner critic self -talk can come from there. So that kind of gets in the way. So it's all of that leading into adulthood where we go, oh, I don't have time to play.
jeanne (25:07.211)
Hmm.
jeanne (25:22.861)
Hmm. Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (25:24.3)
Hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (25:24.859)
And then, oh, go ahead, June.
jeanne (25:28.013)
Yeah, I was just curious. Do you think this is why maybe the research has changed recently? Maybe, but not as far as I know, the Swedish culture is so...
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (25:33.607)
Thank you.
jeanne (25:42.861)
less affected by anxiety and so much more well adapted. I mean, I think they've won the prize or title of the most, the happiest kids in the world and the most well adjusted children in the world because their model is usually based on play. Like the kids don't have homework, they don't attend school for as long. So do you think that's where they led from in terms of that?
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (25:54.685)
you
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (26:09.149)
A thousand percent, yeah. I don't know much about Sweden specifically, but Denmark, they're the happiest country, and some reports will tell you. They have like sidewalk trampolines built into their cities, you know, so, and going back to what play is optional, beneficial, you know, that a simple jumping up and down on a trampoline, that will benefit your brain.
jeanne (26:10.477)
Okay.
jeanne (26:18.029)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (26:23.758)
So cool.
jeanne (26:24.685)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (26:38.941)
for longer than you were on the trampoline.
jeanne (26:39.789)
Ooh, then I play. I have a play.
Dr. Kelley (26:43.258)
Yay!
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (26:44.797)
What?
jeanne (26:45.933)
have a trampoline in my office and I jump on it when I feel too anxious.
Dr. Kelley (26:49.024)
Perfect. You and Tony Robbins.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (26:57.037)
I want a trampoline in my office. Wait a second, that's a great idea. Yeah, so when we do whatever the activity is, playing the piano, jumping on the trampoline, whatever it is for you, a puzzle, our brain releases dopamine, serotonin, endorphins, norepinephrine, brain -derived neurotrophic factors, anandamide, all of these things that are responsible for everything that's good for us.
jeanne (26:57.261)
Ka -ching!
Dr. Kelley (26:58.542)
Hehehehehe
Dr. Kelley (27:25.618)
Hmm
jeanne (27:25.653)
Mmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (27:26.173)
regulating our stress, the feelings of joy, improving our creative thinking, better problem solving, all of that leading into easier collaboration, improved communication. If it's jumping on the trampoline and physical activity, then you've got all your, it's good for your body too. So play brings about all of that and all of that also, those neurochemicals leading to neuroplasticity.
jeanne (27:44.109)
Mmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (27:55.709)
So the ability of our brain to continue to learn and grow. So one of my favorite trends recently on social media is rec therapists at nursing homes or rehab facilities, making the balloon games or the cups. Have you seen any of those going around? They're just, they're pointless games with the residents of their facilities, but the joy on these people's faces, and I.
Dr. Kelley (27:59.148)
Hmm.
jeanne (27:59.341)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (28:21.757)
think it could be really cool if we start to study that and look at that over time and see what kind of differences we have as far as, you know, a lot of our elderly generation end up isolating themselves, that kind of thing. So seeing some change in that with that because that part of their brain is still there. Disease process and disorders aside, of course, but healthy, typical brains play all your life.
jeanne (28:24.237)
Thank you.
Dr. Kelley (28:25.356)
Yeah.
jeanne (28:36.621)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (28:41.164)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (28:47.502)
And you know, you were bringing up all of the different neurochemicals and the positives that we get out of this. And it made me think about the specific highly sensitive brain and how the highly sensitive brain processes everything in life so much more complexly and with so many further layers. And I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on the importance of play.
for the highly sensitive brain because the highly sensitive brain, as research has shown, has a much, much more active limbic system as compared to non -highly sensitives. So I know that this is probably a new area to look into, but I'm curious what your thoughts are.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (29:15.343)
you
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (29:21.149)
you
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (29:28.893)
So.
jeanne (29:30.829)
Sorry, can I just ask, Amelia, could you just explain for our audience, what are we talking about when we're talking about the limbic system? Like what does that affect?
Dr. Kelley (29:32.256)
Ahem.
Dr. Kelley (29:39.118)
Sure, sure. Good point. So the limbic system is sometimes called the reptilian brain, the much more, the older portion of the brain that's responsible for basic biochemical experiences in the body, digestion, rest, self -regulation.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (29:44.093)
Eheheheh
jeanne (30:00.139)
Okay.
Dr. Kelley (30:02.286)
There's parts of the brain in the limbic system like the amygdala and different areas that signal to us whether we're safe. And it also signals whether we can be socially engaged and feel safe in doing so. So if you have a more active limbic brain, because you're more observational. Case in point, we were playing last night with our kids. It's funny, we have all these toys and we end up playing with balloons.
jeanne (30:19.021)
you
jeanne (30:23.565)
you
Dr. Kelley (30:31.086)
or like random things the most. And so we were playing with the bottom of the balloon weights. They had these smileys and one of them was a specific smiley and the other two had two other images. And so, you know, that game where you shift the cups around and you have to figure out which cup has the ball. So we were playing that kind of with them flipped over and my daughter and I, who are definitely both HSPs were killing it.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (30:33.563)
Yep. Yep.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (30:46.173)
Oh yeah. Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (30:54.525)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (30:55.054)
My husband, who is not an HSP, he's very sensitive, but he's not an HSP, was grumbling the whole time because he kept not being able to locate it. And it's because according to research, HSPs have much, much more attunement visually. So we're better at like hidden pictures or the study was these two black and white images of these barns.
and you had to find the differences between the two and HSPs far outperformed. That also means the HSP brain and eyes are working harder most of the time. So hopefully that unpacks what I mean by the importance of play for the HSP brain and how the HSP brain is just so much more active in those areas. Thank you for the clarifying question, Jean.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (31:27.805)
Oh wow.
jeanne (31:48.621)
Hahaha!
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (31:51.581)
So you mentioned earlier too, the neurodiversity and consideration of that. So there's this much research on play for adults. There's a tiny fraction of it on play and really true good brain activity on actual adult diagnosed, you know, ADHD, whatever it may be. So I don't have a...
Dr. Kelley (31:55.274)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (32:13.846)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (32:21.294)
Hehehehe.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (32:21.373)
a solid, solid answer, right? But when you think about what play does for us, so with your cup, the game example.
What play can be for us is a way, what is it for kids? It's practicing being an adult. Baby animals, yeah, that's what baby animals play. They are learning to be an adult, you know, when they pounce and they go down and they're the wolf pup or something. They're pretending, they're learning to hunt, right? You know, there's the old pictures of, um,
Dr. Kelley (32:42.638)
Yeah, a way to learn, a way to connect, get energy out. Mm -hmm.
jeanne (32:51.117)
you
Dr. Kelley (32:55.596)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (33:03.485)
tribes where a toddler's carrying a huge machete, right? And they're just playing, because that's what their dad carries a huge machete to get through the jungle, you know? So that's what play is. Play is low stakes practice for human skills. So if we can, you know, we're lending into sort of the mindset territory here, which I love a good mindset shift, but.
jeanne (33:03.743)
you
jeanne (33:10.509)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (33:16.878)
Mm -hmm. Mm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (33:31.889)
is it science, you know, how deeply scientific is it? But if we can take that mindset shift of that game is just low stakes, it does not matter what happens in the end, like you mentioned with your piano, like who cares what it actually sounds like? Exactly, yeah. So that lends into being a safe space for you. So, and that's a whole what hour? Half hour?
jeanne (33:34.847)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (33:46.222)
I'm not going to perform at a recital.
jeanne (33:50.091)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (33:55.308)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (33:59.106)
Eh, 20 minutes. Don't tell my teacher.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (33:59.869)
that you get to, 20 minutes, that you get to just spend, that you're spending without concern for the future and worry, and you get to focus on something and practice your really cool brain skills and your great things that you're good at without a concern for what it means. So giving our brains time and repetition of practicing feeling like that.
jeanne (34:18.369)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (34:19.658)
Mmm.
jeanne (34:28.351)
you
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (34:28.893)
can carry, it's like mindful breathing, right? The more you do your mindful breathing at home, practicing on your chair, that's when you're in traffic and realize, I didn't flip that guy off. I just took some deep breaths, good job me. So, plays kind of the same way.
Dr. Kelley (34:31.406)
Right.
jeanne (34:34.913)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (34:42.286)
It kind of makes me think of the research points to two hours of unstructured time alone for HSPs a day is important. And it seems like as a highly sensitive person or a neurodiverse person or even really just someone under a lot of stress, if you can integrate play into that time, it almost accelerates or accentuates the benefits of the time is basically what I'm hearing you say.
jeanne (34:49.981)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (34:51.133)
Oh!
jeanne (35:09.997)
Hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (35:10.717)
be willing to support that hypothesis for the next study?
Dr. Kelley (35:15.214)
We're going to start an institute now to study this.
jeanne (35:16.041)
I'm
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (35:18.365)
Yeah. Yes. Listen, I actually, that is, you know what, if you've got a listener who is interested in that, I have so many research ideas for this that I would love to see come to fruition, but I'm not going back to school. So there's that.
Dr. Kelley (35:28.14)
Hehehe.
jeanne (35:29.453)
That's amazing.
jeanne (35:34.765)
I would be curious to ask though, from like a practical standpoint, if you were to do these types of integrations in a work environment with a team and you're coaching this for them in their team building retreat, what would you then be recommending? That they have trampolines in their office or that they're painting in their breaks or like, what does that practically look like?
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (35:51.265)
you
Dr. Kelley (35:57.452)
Hehehehe.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (36:03.329)
So for corporate teams, really any kind of organizational teams, the best part about play is that concept of the more you do it, the more you do it. Excuse me. So when we think about creative thinking, problem solving, innovation, brainstorming, when we're at work, we're doing all of those things and it is high stakes, high pressure. You're expected to perform.
But if we give our teams and each other the ability to practice it in low -stakes situations, then we start to see the flow of those neurochemicals that we need for all that stuff, the critical thinking, the problem -solving, nonlinear thinking, pattern recognition, all that kind of stuff, start to happen more often. And the way we do it depends on the team, because remember our first characteristic of play is it's personal. So.
jeanne (36:42.573)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (36:58.478)
Hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (37:00.417)
There's a lot that goes into it about figuring out who does what well, who enjoys what. It's a deep dive into the culture side of leading a company or leading a team, but it's necessary too because you can't just throw play at a team. That's why ping pong tables and kegs in offices don't do any good. Gosh, sorry. Right, yeah.
jeanne (37:11.423)
you
Dr. Kelley (37:25.294)
They might do something.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (37:31.821)
Aside from digging into and doing a full culture audit, which I offer, is simple things that are generally universally enjoyed. So I often recommend that people cover their ping pong table, get rid of the net, and just lay out a bunch of Lego bricks, just to have and to walk by and do with what you will.
Dr. Kelley (37:52.974)
Okay.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (37:58.197)
Another thing that, so one, that is a little bit of a creative outlet. It's a break. Breaks are important. Compare that to exercise science. You have to take breaks. You just have to. That could be a whole episode on its own. But the other sort of bonus thing about having something like a Lego table is that it encourages communication. So Amelia, you've stopped at the Lego table.
jeanne (38:10.411)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (38:25.678)
Okay.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (38:27.969)
and you are building something and maybe it's starting to become obvious that it's a house. And Jean, who's a completely different department from you, is also walking down the hall and she sees you searching for something and maybe she can tell like, oh, you're looking for the leaf elements and I see it over here on this side of the table and she reaches across and hands it to you, here you go, that's a cool tree. And then you're talking to each other when in a professional situation,
Dr. Kelley (38:32.366)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (38:52.043)
Mmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (38:56.129)
you may not need to talk to each other, Amelia. You're a custodian and Gene is a account manager or something. Where normally, right, but normally there wouldn't be a crossover and now all of a sudden you're communicating and you're building a relationship in a really low stakes way because it's a Lego tree, who cares? And then the other part of it, especially with.
jeanne (38:58.923)
Mmm.
jeanne (39:03.179)
I'm
Dr. Kelley (39:03.406)
Yes, I am.
Dr. Kelley (39:14.03)
Low pressure, I love that.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (39:21.985)
Maybe our more serious teams because work will always be work. Work will always have hard aspects. There's conflict. There's very serious decisions to make. So I'm never coming into a team and say, there's no toxic positivity in my world. We're not coming in. Just be happy about it. None of that. Um, but what we can do is introduce tiny little play full elements. So Renee Proyer, I think I mentioned him already. Research is playing.
Dr. Kelley (39:35.31)
Mmm.
jeanne (39:36.715)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (39:39.598)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (39:46.859)
Hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (39:52.353)
as an adult personality trait. And his definition of playfulness is the ability to reframe any situation to be interesting, entertaining, or stimulating. Fun is not in that definition. So when we're thinking about what we can do to make work playful, fun has nothing to do with it at all. Interesting, entertaining, or stimulating, those can be really different things. And a lot of the things, so,
Dr. Kelley (40:12.046)
Hmm, it's thinking outside the box.
jeanne (40:15.445)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (40:18.286)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (40:20.703)
Renee Proyer also has four personal play identities. One of them is intellectual. And when I work with intellectually playful people, one of the first things they say is, oh yeah, no, I, that, yeah, that's my favorite part of work. I would never use the word fun to describe it. Like I know, but it's interesting and stimulating. So it is playful, even though it might like fun's not the right word. So that's where we go. Oh, um,
Dr. Kelley (40:40.526)
Yeah.
jeanne (40:40.747)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (40:44.942)
And then what are the, I can't help, what are the other three?
jeanne (40:49.229)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (40:49.921)
So intellectual, whimsical, Rene Proyer calls it other directed. I tend to use the word relational with others. And then the last one's lighthearted. That's what people usually think of when they hear plays, the lighthearted, playful identity. But there's three others that are wildly different.
Dr. Kelley (41:06.542)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (41:06.859)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (41:11.982)
So could one beg to differ that going down a rabbit hole on Google looking something up that you find interesting to be intellectual play?
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (41:21.057)
1000 % yes. Which is why I really want to start seeing some adult play research on autistic and ADHD brains specifically and now that I'm getting to know you guys, HSP brains. So because I think it's going to be wildly different. I have ADHD and I'm about to share an example of why you asked me like at the beginning of this about the four phases and I never got it.
Dr. Kelley (41:22.958)
Huh. And.
jeanne (41:24.877)
That's interesting.
jeanne (41:31.647)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (41:36.406)
Yes.
jeanne (41:37.065)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (41:50.008)
Mm -hmm. Yes, and I think that the four phases, that was something I loved about your TED Talk, was as an HSP, it helped me understand what kind of recovery time I need, and that's a big part for highly sensitives. So I would love if you could introduce that because I did not want us to miss the frosting on the cake.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (41:50.689)
But, so I can mention that now?
jeanne (41:52.109)
Hahaha.
jeanne (42:08.909)
Hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (42:18.247)
Yay, okay, and I did remember. I am going to pause. Now I do need water, and I'm realizing I did not bring my water, and more coffee is not going to help. Okay, because once we get into the...
Dr. Kelley (42:20.748)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (42:25.261)
Please.
Dr. Kelley (42:25.742)
Do it, go get water. Yeah, you go, go for it.
jeanne (42:28.525)
Oh, shame. While she's wet.
Dr. Kelley (42:36.172)
What are you going to do? Move?
jeanne (42:38.061)
Yeah, I'm sitting in a weird position and my knee is cramping.
Dr. Kelley (42:42.126)
Are you in a, are you in, on like a couch?
jeanne (42:45.261)
Yes, I just want to be comfortable.
Dr. Kelley (42:47.502)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (42:48.235)
Aww, I love it. Okay.
Dr. Kelley (42:54.03)
Four phases. Yeah. Are you okay?
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (42:54.529)
I think we're good. We're good. Four phases. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So there are a lot of people when they think about the flow state, not everyone's heard of it. Not everyone is sure that they've ever experienced it, but it's, it's a pretty common kind of, Oh yeah, I've heard of that. It's like being in the zone, um, in flow. Things are just flowing. It's attributed a lot to extreme athletes.
Dr. Kelley (43:13.678)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (43:22.892)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (43:23.617)
where they get into the flow, skiers and snowboarders, that's sort of an easy access. But, yeah. Yeah, oh yeah.
Dr. Kelley (43:29.838)
And could I ask you one question, one qualifier about flow in my research on ADHD for one of my upcoming books, I encountered that flow is more seen to be more common in the ADHD brain, especially when you look at the phenomenon of hyperfocus. So I was curious about that.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (43:49.313)
Yeah, yes, I will throw that in because it's one of my favorite parts of all of this. Well, favorite because it's relatable. Anyway, so, but everybody thinks of it as your inflow or your not inflow. And Chiksep Mihai told us that the average adult gets into flow most often at work. That was from his, he did X.
Dr. Kelley (43:52.686)
Yeah.
jeanne (43:53.197)
Hahaha!
Dr. Kelley (44:04.812)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (44:05.133)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (44:14.796)
Hmm.
jeanne (44:16.653)
That makes sense.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (44:17.727)
extensive studies, yep. Finding that average adult flow is at work. And then Herbert Benson, who I mentioned before, he is the one who founded the, I believe it's called the MindBody Institute at Mass General Boston, somewhere up there. It still exists, we'll fact check that. But Herbert Benson's definitely his name.
Dr. Kelley (44:17.75)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (44:39.118)
We'll fact check it for you.
jeanne (44:40.525)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (44:47.105)
So I got that part, but he discovered that really it's not about just being in flow and out of flow, that it's a cycle of four stages. So the first stage is struggle. These are not cleverly named. They are not scientific names. Struggle is a struggle. You are doing something hard. It might be repetitive. You're learning. You're struggling through. And during that stage, we get cortisol and adrenaline and cortisol in a way that...
jeanne (44:55.597)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (44:59.18)
Hehehehe
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (45:16.033)
It's what our body naturally produces. It's actually a more motivational hormone. Not stress at its purpose. Cortisol doesn't hate you and want you to be stressed. It just wants you to motivate you to brush your teeth or whatever. So struggle phase is the struggle, and that's the first phase. The second phase is release. Again, not cleverly named. You are releasing yourself from the struggle phase. So you release yourself from whatever that...
Dr. Kelley (45:19.916)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (45:25.197)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (45:45.441)
was that you were doing. So stepping away completely, just physically removing your body from the computer if you've been there for a long time, whatever it is, putting your mind on something else. Steven Kotler that I mentioned before that really took Herbert Vincent's research and has started to apply it to corporate teams working with Deloitte and USC, all kinds of things, is discovering that it's a...
Dr. Kelley (45:50.444)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (46:15.457)
when you walk away from it, that's where, that's the transition into what we know of as flow. So during the release phase, we release, again, not clever, nitric oxide, flushing out the cortisol and the adrenaline, which prepares our body and our brains ready for the flow stage, which is the third stage. And that's what you're to, you're so focused. There's eight traits of this too. Those come from Jixiqsepnihai.
Dr. Kelley (46:21.388)
Mmm.
jeanne (46:21.515)
Mm.
jeanne (46:36.013)
Mmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (46:43.553)
These are definitely not gonna be able to remember all of them. But they all culminate to a full merger of actions and awareness. You don't know what's going on outside of you. You are fully immersed in whatever the task is at hand. And the coolest part is that you love it and you're really good at it. So whatever you're doing in Flow, you're fantastic at it. So whatever you produce in Flow is going to be really good.
Dr. Kelley (46:44.95)
Hehehe.
jeanne (46:55.509)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (47:01.786)
Hmm.
jeanne (47:05.229)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (47:08.718)
Hmm. That's really cool.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (47:13.217)
So that's the third stage. Excuse me. And that's where I started to see all of that overlap, because the neurochemistry of the third stage of flow is just like play. It's the dopamine, it's the serotonin, it's the endorphins, it's the brain derived neurotrophic factors, it's anandamide. So all of that is happening in flow. But it is one, Stephen Kotler's definition of it is an optimal experience, where you feel your best and perform your best.
jeanne (47:13.483)
Wow.
Dr. Kelley (47:25.486)
Huh.
jeanne (47:39.437)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (47:40.782)
Mm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (47:41.217)
A lot of people will call it peak performance or peak experience. So physics, you can't stay at a peak forever. You have to come down. So even if people have realized that things are hard, you move away from it, then you get the good ideas like a shower, shower ideas. You know, people say all the time, Oh, it's just in the shower and came up with this great idea. So that's a release phase. So a lot of people can really, really relate to that, but the one that does not get talked.
Dr. Kelley (47:49.708)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (48:01.454)
Oh, those are my favorite.
jeanne (48:04.557)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (48:10.977)
about enough is recovery. Because we go through flow, we do kick ass work, we feel really good about it, and then we come down. And Stephen Kotler actually compares, I forget which one is which, but he compares all of the neurochemicals that we get during flow, like specifically to street drugs. So you really are coming down. The only one I remember is anandamides like THC.
Dr. Kelley (48:12.942)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (48:34.412)
Wow.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (48:39.393)
But, and his point is if you take all of those, you'll die. But when they come from your brain in the right doses, they're wildly beneficial. But you still have to come down from it, even though they were natural. So you're coming down, you start to feel real crappy. A whole separate talk on, I think imposter phenomenon originates in this era because you just created something that is objectively excellent.
Dr. Kelley (48:42.542)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (48:46.478)
Of course.
jeanne (48:51.917)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (48:52.238)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (49:08.833)
And then, so during flow, I, oh, I forgot to mention my favorite part, ADHD. During the third stage of flow, our prefrontal cortex turns off, not off, but down. So it's called transient hypofrontality. And so our, the CEO of our brain is like, I'm going on vacation, have fun, the rest of the brain. And then, so creativity starts to flow and nonlinear and you start to see ideas and you're trying new things.
jeanne (49:13.323)
Hahaha!
Dr. Kelley (49:19.734)
Wow.
Huh.
Dr. Kelley (49:29.038)
That's interesting.
jeanne (49:34.515)
Oh yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (49:35.713)
and your should part of your brain isn't in the way telling you to stop. That's also where we perceive time passing our prefrontal cortex. So that being turned down, we don't know. We've been doing this for three hours. Or only 10 minutes have gone by and we completed a ton of work, that kind of thing. So.
Dr. Kelley (49:44.844)
Right.
Dr. Kelley (49:53.454)
Gosh, I wish I had spoken to you about this while I was writing because I wrote about this and it made sense to a degree, but what you're saying is clicking so much more because when you think about the differences in the neurodiverse brain with the prefrontal cortex, when you think about time blindness, which I don't love that term, but it's the research term that we're currently using.
jeanne (49:53.805)
Hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (49:57.407)
Oh!
jeanne (50:11.245)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (50:12.851)
Yes. Right. Right.
Dr. Kelley (50:16.462)
Like all of those things have to occur to get you to be so immersed in something that you are so stellar at it. And then I think about this fourth phase that you're saying, the come down phase, and I'm hypothesizing that that phase might be longer for sensitive brains.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (50:36.097)
I would support that too. Sure, yeah, yeah. Because it's already, our neurodivergent brains are already working harder on a regular basis. And then we throw ourselves into flow and it's even more heightened. So yeah, I would support that as well. Yeah, so the recovery phase, that last stage. But we, it gets ignored because society tells us hustle culture.
Dr. Kelley (50:37.774)
That's just my assumption.
Dr. Kelley (50:47.372)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (50:51.083)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (50:52.302)
Right. Wow.
jeanne (50:55.853)
That would make sense.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (51:06.241)
You don't, what do you mean rest? Sorry, you have work to do. So you just did something, probably at work, because the average adult gets into flow most often at work. You finish something that's amazing, and your brain is like, can I get a minute? Can I take a minute? And actually your body too, because some of those neurochemicals, it's why the extreme athletes are able to do what they do. Because some of the neurochemicals are responsible for reducing your perception of pain, and heightening strength.
Dr. Kelley (51:08.302)
Mm -hmm. Right.
Dr. Kelley (51:15.758)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (51:27.286)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (51:36.174)
Interesting.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (51:36.609)
So when you have that happening, even at a low level, working at your desk, you're just more tired. So this recovery phase, you you created something, nobody else in the world cares that you're like, wait, I don't like this as much as I did 10 minutes ago. Also, I'm really tired and in a terrible mood because your dopamine is, your serotonin has dropped, your endorphins are gone, but nobody cares. Just get back to work. And then also there is,
jeanne (51:45.933)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (52:04.174)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (52:07.105)
I'm seeing some articles coming out about like, you know, chasing dopamine, dopamine nation, that kind of thing. So when people are able to find flow for themselves and not do it on accident, they're like, well, I got to get right back in. Let me, let me just get right back into the flow. And then we're just skipping this recovery stage altogether. So it's definitely the most important one. And the two things to do during the flow stage are rest, which is sleep.
Dr. Kelley (52:21.038)
you
jeanne (52:21.325)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (52:25.038)
Right.
Dr. Kelley (52:33.358)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (52:35.905)
Not sitting on the couch watching TV and it's not even relaxation meditation unless you are fully trained in relaxation meditation. Like it's legit, which most of us modern folks are not. Um, so rest sleep, like go to sleep, take a nap if it's the middle of the day, make sure you get a good night's sleep that night. Um, that's just.
Dr. Kelley (52:38.092)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (52:46.574)
Right. Mm -hmm.
jeanne (52:51.477)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (52:57.43)
Right.
jeanne (52:58.061)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (53:05.089)
Top number one, I know it's hard for working adults, but I'll speak to that in a minute. And then the next point is to play, because we talked about that play, when we have those eight characteristics, whatever it is we're doing, we're boosting our dopamine again. We're boosting our serotonin. All flow is play, not all play is flow. So we're not gonna go as high as a peak experience. You know, we're not way up here with our dopamine and all those things, but it's just, it'll get us back above baseline, where we're gonna feel a little bit better.
Dr. Kelley (53:23.566)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (53:31.598)
Hmm.
jeanne (53:31.981)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (53:34.958)
So that's when I think about the essence of what we really wanted to explore today, the two things that I'm hearing other than a million interesting things that I want to go research further is first of all, that the rest period is so much more productive than we give credit. Right. And when we when we get so hyper focused on productivity,
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (53:46.817)
Hahaha!
jeanne (53:48.243)
I'm
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (53:59.553)
Yes.
Dr. Kelley (54:04.27)
It pulls us away from the two important things that we need to perform the best and to feel the best we can, which are play and rest. And to say, I feel bad for not being productive or not being on top of things, but you are because play and rest is part of that cycle. And I appreciate you giving that permission and giving, giving the neurochemical science behind why it's so important. Um, yeah, that's big. So.
jeanne (54:23.029)
Hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (54:30.473)
Yes.
Dr. Kelley (54:33.486)
I'm curious if you think about all the things that you presented today, what do you think are, if you could give like the top three things you hope someone walks away and thinks, you know, I'm going to change these three things about how I either play or rest to take care of my beautiful brain.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (54:54.017)
So my favorite one is to lean into that definition of playfulness. That play doesn't have to mean it. If you have the means and the time to take piano lessons and it's something you enjoy, do it. Absolutely. But if you're one of the millions of adults going, I can't, I don't have time for this. How can you make your normal routine interesting, entertaining, or stimulating? If you listen to my TEDx.
Dr. Kelley (54:58.476)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (55:06.796)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (55:07.245)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (55:14.734)
Right.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (55:21.857)
It involves singing. I will not sing on your podcast. Um, but they're simple things. And a lot of times people look at me and go, why are they do that? Like, okay, just tell yourself it's play again with the mindset shift. That's a simple, like, um, Oh no, I'm forgetting the phrase. Just, uh, not biofeedback, but the more you tell yourself that it's play, you'll just feel better. I don't know what I'm, I can't think of that term anyway.
Dr. Kelley (55:24.192)
Hehehehe
Dr. Kelley (55:47.662)
Right. Positive.
jeanne (55:49.741)
Yeah, yeah, you will start believing that. Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (55:51.893)
Reinforcement? Yeah. Something like that. Um, so adding playfulness into your life, into what already exists. Um, for my corporate people, forced fun is never fun. I really, I should get a tattoo on my back. Uh, that's my big one. Right here. Right here. Yeah. Yes. So people read it. Um, and then also,
Dr. Kelley (56:01.166)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (56:08.238)
Or just right here, because then we'll all see it. But backwards, so that, no.
jeanne (56:11.597)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (56:20.609)
I think maybe I'm guessing you have quite a few women listeners probably. So if we, or just caregivers in general, yes, yes. But when we think about caregivers and the responsibility that we often feel that we have to play with our children, and a lot of us will go, well, I play with them all the time. That's not.
Dr. Kelley (56:26.222)
Yes. Shout out to all the men too. Hi dad. No, I'm just kidding.
jeanne (56:29.227)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (56:36.504)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (56:43.18)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (56:47.34)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (56:49.569)
play.
Dr. Kelley (56:50.702)
I am so happy you said something about that though. I just want to mention that you had mentioned the four different types of play, like personalities, and I am not good at sitting down and imaginary play with dolls. It just, my brain just goes offline, but I'm very, yeah, but I love play with like creating art or going on a hike or baking or so I'm, I want to unpack. I'm going to look into that further on my own.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (56:58.399)
Mm -hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (57:06.305)
saying.
jeanne (57:07.469)
Yeah, I'm the same.
Dr. Kelley (57:20.718)
play personalities and I don't know if there's a good resource to share.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (57:25.089)
I'll share the research article. Yeah, personal play identity. If you look up play personalities, you'll get Stuart Brown's work, which is a little bit more about what you do to play. And Renee Proyer's personal play identities are more about like who you are and how playful you are. But recently Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach and Amanda, their podcast, We Can Do Hard Things, Glennon just outright says, play with your children is work, it's not play. And it's so true.
Dr. Kelley (57:26.99)
Awesome. Okay.
jeanne (57:29.329)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (57:39.15)
Awesome, I'm gonna look into that.
Dr. Kelley (57:51.734)
I'm
jeanne (57:52.365)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (57:54.081)
So just knowing that as a human, even dads, if your child is asking you to play and you are dreading it, that is a normal and okay. Offer them something else. I'm not saying never play with your kids, but just know that you need to also find your own play as well.
Dr. Kelley (57:59.342)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (58:05.358)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (58:14.731)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (58:16.27)
Thank you for that permission.
jeanne (58:19.661)
So where can our audience find you? Where can they go to learn more about you, to see your offerings?
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (58:26.241)
So I'm located geographically outside of Denver, Colorado, and I am starting to put on some in -person workshops, so if anybody's nearby, those are starting to happen at least every other month, maybe more coming up. Just did one yesterday on the personal play identities, and my whole room was intellectual. It was kind of wild this time. But my website is www .playfulworkdesign .com.
Dr. Kelley (58:43.854)
Awesome.
Yeah.
jeanne (58:48.301)
Yeah.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (58:56.353)
I'm not probably the only AC if you just search that on LinkedIn. And then Instagram and X, I am B boardless, like the verb, B -E boardless. So I'm pretty active on all of them. And I love to hear from people how you play, how you realized that was play like Amelia's piano and Jean's trampoline.
Dr. Kelley (58:59.98)
Hehehe.
jeanne (59:01.739)
Yeah.
jeanne (59:08.845)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (59:18.04)
I think I'm very playful, actually. And when I'm not playful, I'm not as nice. Oh, Acy, thank you so much for coming. I loved learning all this stuff and being able to integrate it into some of the fabulous things that we want to explore with our listeners. And you are just so, you are truly a dynamic speaker. And so it was...
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (59:25.023)
Yeah. Yup. Yeah.
jeanne (59:25.677)
Hahaha.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (59:43.717)
Aw, thanks.
jeanne (59:44.875)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (59:45.614)
So thrilling to have you and I'm so grateful that you joined us today.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (59:49.761)
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me and yay.
jeanne (59:50.285)
Yeah, such a lot of fun. Thank you so much.
Dr. Kelley (59:53.486)
Mm -hmm, yes. Okay, bye everyone.
jeanne (59:58.593)
Ciao, see you next time.
Okay, that was awesome.
Dr. Kelley (01:00:03.426)
Yay.
Acey Holmes (she/her) BoredLess (01:00:04.541)
Yay!