Drs. Kelley and Jeanne speak to the inspiring Dr. Peter A. Levine, author of several best-selling books including "Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma." Dr, Levine is the developer of Somatic Experiencing®, a naturalistic and neurobiological approach to healing trauma, which he has developed over the past 50 years. He is the Founder and President of the Ergos Institute for Somatic Education, dedicated to Community Outreach and Post-Advanced Somatic Experiencing® Training, and the Founder and Advisor for Somatic Experiencing International.
In this special episode Drs. Jeanne and Kelley talk to Dr. Levine about his latest, a deeply personal book, An Autobiography of Trauma: A Healing Journey. Dr. Peter A. Levine discusses his personal journey of healing from trauma and the importance of somatic experiencing in trauma therapy.
Key Topics
Dr. Peter Levine:
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Dr. Kelley (05:00.86)
Okay. Well, welcome. I'm so happy you're here with us. And as I was saying, I am just so excited to get to talk to you and explore all the things that you wanted to express in this really vulnerable and open book that you are sharing so much of your experiences, not just from your expertise, but your lived experiences. And as you explore it in the book, you really went into
in some really authentic detail your childhood and the traumas and threats that your family experienced specifically from the mafia. So I'm curious, how did those early experiences shape your interest in trauma healing and this world that you've unfolded for so many people?
peter a levine (05:33.853)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
peter a levine (05:49.951)
Well, okay, of course. Yeah, I mean, the question is, again, how to work with these things that happen, lack of support and violence, but to be able to do it in a way that's safe, more safe. And that's been my goal. You know, there's an archetype in Greek called Chiron.
Dr. Kelley (05:57.933)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (06:07.934)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (06:16.608)
Mm-hmm.
peter a levine (06:16.739)
and the way I understand it today, that's about the wounded healer. And I think it really speaks to the need for all of us people who do healing work with others to do our own work. And actually, when I started to write the book, I wasn't going to be writing it as a book. It was just because I'm the age I am, I have certainly less years in front of me than I have had behind me, even if I'm living a long life.
Dr. Kelley (06:20.673)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (06:29.499)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (06:46.218)
Mm-hmm.
peter a levine (06:46.663)
which is my idea, which is my plan. But anyhow, it was to be an excavation, kind of to look back at my life and see how it formed, who I was, how I was. So that was something that was, it was difficult, but it was healing, you know. And then a very good friend of mine, she,
Dr. Kelley (06:49.498)
Yeah.
peter a levine (07:16.039)
said something like, Peter, you really need to publish this as a book. Because, and I said, what are you talking about? This is just for my own use. It would be too vulnerable, too raw to make as a book for others to look at, to read. And she said, well, why don't you think about it? She also said she really thought that it could help other people, many other people. And of course, that's something that I, you know, always have done.
But anyhow, I couldn't make up my mind. She asked me to really think about it seriously, and that's what I did.
So often when I'm at a choice point or I don't know where to go next, I'm blessed by having an important dream that really shines the way. And the dream that I had was I'm sitting in front of a large field. And in my hands, in both my hands, I have a number of pages.
And it's also some kind of a manuscript, because I can see it's typewritten. So I'm looking to the left, looking to the right, left, right. Again, I'm in a conflict of just not knowing what's the right decision. So in that conflict, a breeze, a wind comes from behind me and takes all of these pages and blows them into the air, onto the meadow.
Dr. Kelley (08:40.34)
Right.
Dr. Kelley (08:52.236)
Wow.
peter a levine (08:53.167)
When I woke, I realized that the decision had been made, not by my conscious mind, which was still in the throes of indecision, but rather my unconscious was telling me that this was the way to go, this was the important direction to go. So I made that decision. But it was, at that point, it was still a difficult task.
to make it both for myself and also to help others in a way to take their hands and help them move some of the trauma that may have occurred in their lives and also helping them to find a way to start moving them to the past where they belong. So that's really the story about how I got started. As I said, it was a decision that was difficult for me to make.
Dr. Kelley (09:18.033)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (09:29.74)
Right.
Dr. Kelley (09:41.548)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (09:41.975)
Mm-hmm.
peter a levine (09:48.527)
And actually when I first spoke about it publicly, it was just a couple of months, well it was in December, middle of December, and there's a big conference in California called the Evolution of Psychotherapy, usually it's between five and 8,000 people there. So I was standing in front of this audience and the words wouldn't come, my throat just constricted.
Dr. Kelley (10:17.354)
Mm.
peter a levine (10:17.875)
and which of course made me scared about my fear. But then I remembered the number of things that a number of people, colleagues, friends, but other people have written about the book. And I felt them in that moment by my side, but also supporting me from behind. And then the words flowed. And then finally, when the book,
Dr. Kelley (10:22.488)
Thank you.
Dr. Kelley (10:38.668)
Hmm.
peter a levine (10:47.327)
came out and now it is available wherever bookstores are sold. It's obviously too late to say I decided not to do it, but I felt right about it. I felt right about it. And that's what led to the writing of the book.
Dr. Kelley (10:51.302)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (10:58.796)
Never mind.
jeanne (10:58.936)
Ha ha ha.
Dr. Kelley (11:10.56)
I'm curious when you mentioned being a wounded healer. I had casually mentioned to you about 10 years ago that I decided to redirect my career towards trauma work. And I realized that was from my own personal traumas that had facilitated that. And then more reflection on generational trauma, past trauma. I'm always curious, and this was something I hadn't planned on asking, but I'm curious if you can speak to
jeanne (11:10.713)
I'm cute.
peter a levine (11:14.882)
Mm.
peter a levine (11:23.921)
Mm-hmm.
peter a levine (11:27.275)
Sure. Yep.
peter a levine (11:33.656)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (11:40.78)
how much of our woundedness should be shared and expressed in trauma work? Because I think about how you had to dig so deep to be so vulnerable and share so much, and how important is that?
peter a levine (11:56.887)
Oh, it's very important. Sina Kwan Nan, very, very important. Yeah. You know, I was, this must have been 30 plus years ago. I started to have some very disturbing symptoms, sensations, and momentary flashes. And I realized.
Dr. Kelley (12:12.332)
Mm-hmm.
peter a levine (12:24.435)
that was time for me to take a dose of my own medicine.
So I asked one of my students to sit with me. And she did. And insomatic experiencing, this maybe helps ask some of your questions. We don't go right for the trauma. There are approaches where they have the person relive their traumas over and over again to supposedly drain the swamp. And I think it just drains people's vital energy away. And
Dr. Kelley (12:56.201)
I agree.
peter a levine (12:58.095)
So it's a very, very different approach. And we really look for embodied experiences, because really this is about the living body, the sensing living, knowing body. Body experiences that contradict those of terror, of overwhelm, of helplessness. So we're able to get a balance. And so what came up for me when I started working with my students,
Dr. Kelley (13:17.976)
Mm-hmm.
peter a levine (13:25.723)
was an image of memory and a strong, powerful sensation of my body. When I was four or five years old, it was my birthday and my parents gave me a model train set. And in the middle of the night, they came in and laid the tracks underneath the bed out into the room and then back again underneath the bed in the oval. Oh, I...
Dr. Kelley (13:50.324)
Oh, my son would love that.
peter a levine (13:53.655)
I was beyond, I just like, I literally jumped out of bed. I was just excited beyond belief. And I ran over to the transformer so I could control the speed and then made the horn go. And in that moment, of course I didn't have words for it, but I knew that I was cared for, even though many, many horrible things had happened, even also with my parents.
But at that moment, I felt loved. I felt cared for and loved. And embodying that experience was an important foundation to do further exploration. Then my guide noticed a very slight shuffling of my feet. And she brought my attention to it.
and had me slow it down. That's another thing in somatic experiencing, which I talk about. It's really about slowing things down, because the problem in trauma is things happen too fast, they happen too soon. So we really have to slow them down to be able to rework them. And so then what came up around this time, I'll give you kind of a little bit of a history or a backstory, is that
Our life was threatened, my family's life was threatened by the mafia. It's a long story, but my father was made to testify against this man named Johnny Dio Guadardo, Johnny Dio. And he was one of the most violent people of all the mafia. There, he was featured in two movies, The Goodfellows and The Irishman. And that was the one that you assigned if you wanted violence, violent killing.
jeanne (15:32.769)
Mm-hmm.
peter a levine (15:48.251)
And so, again, it's a long story. My father wasn't innocent, he was innocent, but the DA tried, because he had some information, tried to get him to testify. And Johnny Dio, and I didn't realize this, actually my brothers told me this later, that he was, I think he said, if you testify,
Dr. Kelley (15:58.539)
Mm.
peter a levine (16:16.127)
you'll find your family face down in the East River.
Dr. Kelley (16:20.02)
Oh my goodness.
peter a levine (16:21.427)
So this was a milieu of threat. And what made it more difficult even is that it was never talked about. If it were acknowledged, we knew something was wrong from their body language. And every couple of Fridays, this lawyer would come and they'd go in the living room. He was a lawyer from the mafia, again, telling my father what to say, what not to say. So, and eventually he did go to prison for contempt of court.
Dr. Kelley (16:46.06)
Gotcha.
peter a levine (16:50.075)
It went up to the Supreme Court and the Warren Court. And Warren said this was the worst decision that the Supreme Court had ever made. So it was it was very trying times. OK, so that's the background. And, you know, I write in an unspoken voice that trauma is not really so much what happened to us, but it's rather what we hold inside.
in the absence of that present empathetic other. And that was part of that wound. That was the milieu of the wound was in not having that, telling us these are difficult times and whatever happens you'll be taken care of. But that was never said. So then we continue with the exploration with my.
Dr. Kelley (17:25.004)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (17:41.45)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (17:41.462)
Right.
jeanne (17:44.301)
Mm-hmm.
peter a levine (17:48.907)
guide, my therapist. And the movement started to increase into my legs. And then I came to an image and a body memory. There was a park across the street from our apartment house and I would climb over the wrought iron fence. It was pretty high, but I was able to do it. I was a good climber. And then down through the bushes and below there was a cinder running track.
and I would start to walk and walk fast and then start to run. And so the fear that we were under really took my legs from out from under me and running was helping me restore my legs. So again, an important step in working with what was going to soon happen. And so the next image was, by the way, what I would do, I would get home from middle school, from junior high school.
jeanne (18:34.116)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (18:39.392)
Right.
peter a levine (18:48.919)
I would run up to the apartment, I would have my milk and pepper farm cookies, and then run to the park and then run in the running oval. But this one time when I went over the fence, I was looking to the left and there were some very dangerous looking people.
Dr. Kelley (19:17.432)
Mm-hmm.
peter a levine (19:17.759)
They were smoking cigarettes, I remember that, and they had these motorcycle hats. And I felt the hair on my back and my arms just go up. I was experiencing fear and I didn't know what to do. I realized that if I climbed the fence, it would take time and they could pull me down. So I decided to run down into the bushes.
Dr. Kelley (19:30.612)
Wow. Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (19:41.432)
Thank you.
Dr. Kelley (19:46.968)
Mm-hmm.
peter a levine (19:46.975)
to the running track. And as I
tried to do that, I was grabbed from behind and I was violently assaulted and raped. And I later came to realize that this was done because it was to send a message again to my parents that these people were serious, that they were murderous. But I never told my parents. And in a way, I never told...
Dr. Kelley (20:00.364)
Hmm.
peter a levine (20:21.299)
them to myself.
Dr. Kelley (20:23.052)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (20:23.245)
Mm.
peter a levine (20:24.803)
I kept it hidden by walling it off, by putting it in a place where it was split off from the rest of my conscious awareness. And we do that with trauma, especially with severe trauma. It's like it doesn't really exist, except it's existing all the time. Because every time I went to school after that, my breathing would constrict, my heartbeat would increase. I would do these rituals of stepping on the cracks.
Dr. Kelley (20:33.012)
Right.
jeanne (20:33.528)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (20:35.608)
Mm-hmm.
peter a levine (20:54.463)
of not stepping on the cracks. And so that's the story. But the work, particularly the way it was carried out made a big difference. And those symptoms basically disappeared. There were still certain muscular holdings that I had to work with, but the charge was gone. And I was able to put it in the past, acknowledge it, acknowledge that it happened, put it in the past.
Dr. Kelley (20:56.04)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (21:04.696)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (21:16.469)
Thank you.
peter a levine (21:22.815)
where it belonged and then go on with my life.
Dr. Kelley (21:26.752)
Was it from witnessing or being indicted on that? Sorry, Jean, what were you gonna say?
jeanne (21:27.564)
You're very, there's a very interesting, oh. No, no, you can't, I think we lost connection there, but it's okay, I can just edit that part out. There's an interesting part in your book where you speak about trauma and betrayal and how difficult it is to get over the betrayal. And for me personally, I mean, I told Emilia yesterday I've forgiven the most.
peter a levine (21:45.888)
Hmm.
jeanne (21:56.356)
heinous things done against me, like bodily and emotionally. But that's the thing that I really, really struggle with is that betrayal.
peter a levine (22:00.638)
Yeah.
peter a levine (22:05.015)
Yeah, take your time, just let it slow down, Gene. Yeah, just take your time, really.
jeanne (22:14.5)
that question, you know, why? I don't understand. And you keep kind of going back to that, especially if it's somebody that should have been protecting you or you kind of place on a pedestal. And I was wondering how did you deal with that?
peter a levine (22:18.591)
Mmm.
peter a levine (22:28.853)
Yes.
Yet.
peter a levine (22:35.939)
Yeah, that was a tough one. You know, pain, I mean, I know pain. And I'm able to work through pain pretty well using those tools. But betrayal is something else. It's like being stabbed in the back by the one person that you trusted and that was supposed to be taking care of you. And the way it was for me, how it came up.
jeanne (22:38.147)
Eh?
peter a levine (23:05.835)
for me was starting from the train, I was really interested in electricity. And so my uncle took me to a cousin's electrical warehouse in downtown Canal Street, Manhattan. And I walked past a shelf that had all kinds of buzzers and buttons for the buzzers. And so I had this idea, I was gonna...
jeanne (23:29.253)
Mm-hmm.
peter a levine (23:34.663)
make a clubhouse, I was going to use that to, you know, so people, I would have my privacy and if somebody wanted to come in, they'd have to ring the bell. So I put them in my pocket. And when I got home, I went down and found a box that a television came in. In those times, they were big boxes and the screen was about that big. And I quickly brought it up.
jeanne (23:59.344)
Hmm. Ha ha!
Dr. Kelley (24:01.147)
Thank you.
peter a levine (24:04.367)
I went to the kitchen, got a knife, cut out a door and cut out a window and put the button there. And I practiced pushing the button. And so I felt safe. But then my parents came into the room, they must have reasoned what happened, and they pulled me out of my clubhouse and dragged me into the living room where they interrogated me over and over.
And each one would hit me, it was like a Gestapo, what do you call it? Yeah, ink, yeah, more than that. And they, and instead of saying, Peter, that was so great that you made your clubhouse and made that, but you have to ask, you can't steal it. But instead they just kept slapping me around, pushing me from one to the other. Recently,
jeanne (24:40.748)
Yeah, inquiry.
peter a levine (25:02.627)
And again, I worked on that memory recently. It's a woman that I was close to. And sometimes, for example, like when I do an interview, I turn my phone off. Sometimes I forget to turn it back on. So she must have called while it was on. And then I turned it on and there was a message. And I said, hi, I'm back. And she said, you know, I kept trying to reach you and you didn't answer. And I said, hmm.
Well, actually, the phone was off. I just turned it on. You know, and I said, sometimes I forget. And she said, I called you three times. And it really got me mad. But then I realized, my God, that replayed in some way that betrayal, that being interrogated, being accused and so forth. So I just was able to, oh, okay, that's interesting. So I was just able to let it go.
Dr. Kelley (25:51.204)
Mm.
jeanne (25:51.376)
Mm.
jeanne (26:01.921)
you
peter a levine (26:02.023)
So again, these betrayals often show up in our relationships. And if we're self-aware and you have the commitment with the other person to also be self-aware, then we can meet each other unencumbered by some of these traumas so that we can truly be connected in the here and now.
Dr. Kelley (26:21.944)
So are you essentially saying that even if you can't repair the betrayal with perhaps the person who betrayed you, the experiences in other relationships when those physical body memories or just the aha moments, you can work through the betrayal with other safe people?
peter a levine (26:40.859)
No, yeah, it has to be a safe person, obviously. But, you know, I did work through a lot of the betrayal, you know, in working with it again, having somebody sit with me, guide me. And this is another long story. The book speaks of this, but Albert Einstein became an important mentor for me. And when I was...
Dr. Kelley (26:43.328)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (26:48.097)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (27:07.332)
I was in love with that part of your story, by the way. I told my daughter all about it.
jeanne (27:09.665)
Yeah.
peter a levine (27:09.931)
Yeah, yeah, me too. Oh, right. So anyhow, in my reworking, he said to my parents exactly what I said. You know, you should never what you did was wrong. You should never have done that. You needed to just acknowledge his creativeness and then guide him to return it. And so I had that was a
Dr. Kelley (27:26.913)
Hmm.
peter a levine (27:38.695)
reworking, but still even when you rework something, sometimes there's a little sliver, a little shadow that still is there in the background and that comes up when we have a difficult in a relationship. And the relationship in a way is this opportunity to continue reworking our stuff. I think that's important. If both the people are committed to that, then you can have a real relationship in the here and now. If not,
Dr. Kelley (27:58.613)
Yes.
peter a levine (28:06.847)
You're just bouncing back and forth between, you know, each of our different trauma histories and then that are, you know, are different ego states.
jeanne (28:18.448)
Wow, that's so profound to me. Thank you so much for sharing that. We're so grateful.
peter a levine (28:24.779)
Sure.
Dr. Kelley (28:27.964)
And Jean, I just want to thank you for being so vulnerable and sharing that now too. That's big.
jeanne (28:32.269)
Yeah.
peter a levine (28:34.809)
Yeah, exactly. And that was my hope in writing the book that would help others can contact even more their vulnerability, our shared vulnerability. And I think that's, you know, hopefully if the human race would go in that way, I think there'd be a lot less wars and horrible things happening. But.
jeanne (28:35.076)
Thank you.
jeanne (28:45.904)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (28:56.172)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (29:02.188)
So there's so many wonderful things that I would love to have asked you more about Dr. Levine, but I know that it's a whole lifetime of learning that you have had and so many experiences. And I am so grateful that you shared some of that through your book and it enlivens me to want to continue learning more about this work. Yes.
jeanne (29:13.562)
Mm-hmm.
peter a levine (29:27.666)
oh great yeah
Dr. Kelley (29:29.712)
And I'm so grateful because even in the little that I know, it changes the way that I see that response in myself and in others and being able to, I think there was something that I had wanted to ask you about which was generational trauma because you brought up the study with the rats with the cherry blossoms and that was huge.
jeanne (29:30.147)
Yeah.
peter a levine (29:41.172)
Yeah.
peter a levine (29:49.125)
Uh, yeah.
peter a levine (29:54.971)
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there are many things here that I haven't talked about in my other books. But again, it's also a personal story. If I might mention it, it's called an autobiography of trauma, a healing journey. And you can get it wherever books. There you go. Where books are sold. I'm glad you got a copy. And.
jeanne (30:17.098)
Yeah
Dr. Kelley (30:18.086)
Admittedly, my mom was visiting when I had it, so we were trading it back and forth and we had two different accounts. Yeah, it was fun and we got to talk about it.
peter a levine (30:21.323)
Oh, oh, that's great to do it with your with a parent. That's wonderful. Yeah. I you're the first one who's actually said that or, you know, describe that. And and also how I met Einstein and how he became an important guide for me. That was one of them for me, one of the most touching parts to talk about. But also one of the people.
Dr. Kelley (30:31.203)
Yeah.
peter a levine (30:51.223)
who were asked to write a review of the book. And he said, I'll write it, but only if he doesn't talk about his encounter with Einstein. So I said, but he wrote something about me, which was also very touching. But anyhow, I'm so glad the book is out. Oh, if you want more information, you can go to the website, Trau one word.
Dr. Kelley (31:02.12)
Hahaha
peter a levine (31:21.26)
soma And that also connects, it's also about my talks that you can watch. And I think it also, let's see, oh, and other written material, other books and so forth. It also links with the traumahealing.org website, which is responsible for teaching this work. And it's now taught in 44 countries.
jeanne (31:28.292)
Okay.
peter a levine (31:49.067)
to about 70,000, 60 or 70,000 people. So it's starting with just a group of 12 or 15 people in Berkeley that I started to develop the work in the early 70s to something. But anyhow, it's off my shoulders. I know that I have done enough. And because it's out in the world and I'm not the only teacher, but the other part, am I enough?
jeanne (32:06.851)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (32:11.031)
Mm-hmm
peter a levine (32:17.555)
That was a big part in writing the autobiography. And more and more, I feel that, yes, I am enough. So thank you both. And I'm off, OK? All right, sure. Bye, y'all. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Kelley (32:20.888)
Yeah.
jeanne (32:26.932)
Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you so much. Okay. Thank you. Bye.