We are joined by Cathy Biase, holistic nutritionist & certified cancer coach, to talk about gut health. We explore the idea of the the gut being the second brain, why highly sensitive often have digestive issues, and approaches that can help.
We explore the importance of nutrition and the gut in maintaining overall health. The conversation highlights the hope and empowerment that comes from taking control of one's health and making positive choices.
Takeaways
Cathy Biase:
Cancer Canopy | Website | Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTube | The Health Hub
jeanne (02:24.897)
So we're so happy to talk to you today, Cathy, especially about nutrition and the gut. I think it's something that's become so important and it feels like it's becoming more and more important. We read more about it. We see a lot more research coming out and it's very much referred to as the second brain or that your gut is the second brain and all of the things that it affects in your body. Could you maybe explain to us why do they define it as such? Why is it the second brain?
cathy (02:55.278)
So within your digestive tract, there is a whole nervous system. It's called the enteric nervous system. And in short strokes, the enteric nervous system, it's really responsible for your digestion. But the immune system that we support within our gut is also extensive. But this enteric nervous system can detect other things. And it can, through the vagal nerve,
up to the central nervous system. It can communicate issues of irritation, of poor digestion, and this impacts the brain and it becomes a loop. So as these signals are being sent through the enteric nervous system, up the vagal system into the central nervous system, information is being passed on. And with that also comes the whole other aspect of our microbiome. Now our microbiome,
jeanne (03:51.617)
Sorry, just before you continue, can I just make clear for our guests, what is the vagal nerve that you're referring to?
cathy (03:57.518)
The vagus nerve connects basically it runs from the brain down into our digestive tract and it connects the second brain which is our gut to our central nervous system and into the brain stem. So there's a constant communication of checks and balances and things can even break down within the vagus nerve. You know I did a program on
Dr. Kelley (04:07.923)
Thank you.
cathy (04:22.67)
on the vagal nerve and how to stimulate the vagus nerve and to keep it healthy as well. So there are a lot of checks and balances that go on, but also within the gut, we have our microbiome. And the microbiome in and of itself supports our immune system and it's responsible for breaking down our foods into very digestible pieces of nutrition for us. But also our microbiome and within our gut,
We produce, or we should produce in a healthy gut environment, neurotransmitters. And again, neurotransmitters are, we used to think that they were produced by the brain. With respect to mood, we're talking about, a lot of it is around serotonin. The research has been around serotonin, which is our mood hormone. A lot of it is produced in the gut. And this is the byproduct of a healthy gut.
So if there is a microbiome imbalance and if the microbiome is not being fed properly, it has not had the lifestyle support that it needs, these very important neurotransmitters won't be produced. So it's not a one simple answer and you can very much see now how the impact of what we eat, the impact of how we digest is fed back to the brain.
jeanne (05:40.897)
Mm.
cathy (05:45.806)
It also comes the other way as well. I'm sure that you have been on podcasts, you speak and you get that little upset in your tummy before you step onto stage. And that started up here, right? That started with the thoughts. Can I do this? There were a lot of people. What if I make a mistake? And that will impact the gut. So there is this loop and where we call the first brain is our brain. The second brain within the gut is so vital to the importance of not only our physical health,
jeanne (06:13.601)
Wow.
cathy (06:15.758)
but also our mental health as well.
jeanne (06:19.393)
So this really goes to sensitive people, people that are prone to more anxiety, nervousness. Many of us, I'm one of them, tend to have gut issues and IBS or irritable bowel syndrome. Can you explain to us what is irritable bowel syndrome and why does it happen to us?
cathy (06:38.83)
IBS is sort of an umbrella term and it composes a number of symptoms. So you can have a gas, bloating, diarrhea, constipation, cramping, but it isn't a physical impact on the digestive system. It's not an inflammatory bowel disease like Crohn's and colitis. It's harder to treat or it's hard to treat because they really don't know why it happens.
Dr. Kelley (06:50.867)
Hmm.
cathy (07:07.214)
What happens when you have IBS or what can happen is the small intestine does not, it can be a transit problem. This is one thing that is looked upon as possibly one of the issues. But what can happen is food and carbohydrates in particular are slow to pass through the small intestine. And what happens is that water,
is pulled into the small intestine. So we get that bloating and distension of the small intestine. And then because the carbohydrates are not being digested efficiently, they make their way down into the large intestine where the bacteria will use them as food because carbohydrates and fiber are actually essential for our microbiome to survive. So they use the undigested carbohydrates as a food source.
And as I alluded to earlier, what the microbiome does, it will break down food and it will give off byproducts. You know, these are, a lot of them are healthy, butyrate, vitamin B, things like that, but will also give off gases. So you've got this distension in the small intestine, and then you've got gases being emitted by the microbiome in the large intestine. And this is where a lot,
Dr. Kelley (08:17.843)
Mmm.
cathy (08:29.486)
of the thought is that IBS is occurring and how it occurs.
Dr. Kelley (08:34.035)
Could I ask a clarifying question about the term microbiome? Because as I'm listening, and I'm a very visual listener, I guess we'll say, I'm trying to visualize the microbiome and how our listeners might want to more deeply understand, would you say it's aligning? Is it the environment? What is it, just so that we can get that visual as you keep unpacking it?
jeanne (08:34.401)
Okay.
cathy (09:02.734)
Good question. I probably should have clarified. We have microbiome all over our body, in our mouth. And, you know, women have it in their vaginal tract. It's all over, on our skin. The skin is a huge holder of microbiome. And these are bacteria, virus, fungi that live in our system. And as mentioned before, they do things for us. They help us to live a healthier life.
Dr. Kelley (09:06.675)
Okay.
jeanne (09:12.289)
Mm -hmm.
cathy (09:27.022)
So within the gut, starting, you know, right from the esophagus all the way down, we have a very thin epithelial lining. And on top of that, to protect it, is a mucosal lining. And you'll have bacteria landing on that and then floating around within the whole digestive tract. And a healthy microbiome, a gut microbiome, some of the byproducts, butyrate was one of them, will help to feed this mucosal lining. It's a buffer. It's a protection. And if...
Dr. Kelley (09:34.163)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (09:55.393)
Mmm.
cathy (09:56.302)
the bacteria in our gut does this efficiently, then there's no penetration of toxins to that epithelial lining. If we have a poor environment, if our mucosal lining is not where it should be, what can happen is we can get inflammation because toxins, food particles, they can hit that very delicate epithelial lining and cause inflammation. And this leads us down a whole other conversation about the impact of the microbiome on inflammation.
Dr. Kelley (10:05.523)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (10:19.315)
Hmm.
jeanne (10:20.065)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (10:25.459)
Mm -hmm.
cathy (10:25.902)
We want it, the microbiome, we want it to be, it's a balance. It's like an orchestra. You know, a lot of times people say, this is bad bacteria, this is good bacteria. We have a mix and we want that mix to be balanced. But if it doesn't happen, many, many other things, allergies, autoimmune disease, these things can happen. And, you know, inflammation is one of...
jeanne (10:41.761)
Hmm.
cathy (10:54.478)
The big reasons we have so many chronic diseases right now is because of the health of the gut. And it's because people don't tend to the health of the gut properly. For me, when I am working with people, this is my starting point and everything emanates from it.
jeanne (10:56.833)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (10:57.331)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (11:04.161)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (11:08.627)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
jeanne (11:09.249)
Mm.
So if you're talking about the microbiome and it being upset, is that then why sometimes, I don't know the full name for it and I don't know if this is the right abbreviation, but SIBU happens. I think it's when you're back to it's a disease, right? That your bacteria is unsettled or imbalanced.
cathy (11:29.294)
It's a bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine, yes. And again, this can be, SIBO can be a precursor to IBS. IBS can be, it can be in combination with SIBO, but this is an overgrowth. Most of the gut bacteria should be housed in the large intestine. If there's a leakage up to the small intestine and too much bacteria gets in there, again, this can be an issue.
Dr. Kelley (11:33.843)
Yeah.
jeanne (11:58.561)
Okay.
Dr. Kelley (11:58.963)
So I'm thinking of application to clients and even just, you know, my own health, where if I have clients who, for instance, fall on one end of the spectrum or the other. So one end of the spectrum, they're eating foods that the microbiome doesn't understand as food because it's highly processed. So it's not necessarily signaling appropriate hormone release. And there's this whole orchestra, as you were saying that,
makes it more difficult for the second brain to properly make serotonin, I see an increase in anxiety, depression, different neuroses with my clients. And then on the other end of the spectrum, and I'm really curious about this end, I have a collection of clients I work with who have RFED, Restrictive Feeding Eating Disorder, because they've experienced childhood trauma. And then as adults that kind of picky eating doesn't go away, it turns into this,
anxious, um, aggravation around food, disliking of food, disliking of eating, and it's not because they want to restrict their calories. In those situations, I saw this really, uh, wild thing happen with one of my clients where she actually got COVID. And after she had COVID, she came into my office and she was in a better head space than I had seen her in a year, if not more.
And what it turned out was that because she was so sick, she was kind of overriding the RFED and was eating more and more diversely than she had been for a long time because her body was saying, I don't care if you're anxious about food, you need these nutrients. And right. And well, and I mean, fortunately, yeah, unfortunately, the next time I had her come in, which was two weeks later, I started to see that slow decline in energy.
cathy (13:45.582)
spirit.
jeanne (13:47.329)
Hehehe.
Dr. Kelley (13:55.155)
brain fog coming back, which then signaled finally, oh my goodness, we need to get you in with a mental health informed dietitian. So she's doing much better now because we were able to label what was going on. So my question is related to the diversity that's necessary, the multitude of different types of food and what maybe happens when it's not just processed junk that can affect the microbiome, but
can the lack of food and the lack of nutrients also?
cathy (14:29.102)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, when it comes to nutrition and health, nutrition and being a nutritionist is probably one of the least favorite things people like to do. You know, to improve their health, you know, supplements are fine. I'll exercise. I'll change lifestyle. Please, you know, the food is so difficult. You know, it's been so entrenched. But one of the first things that I talk to people about is not eliminating.
Dr. Kelley (14:41.875)
Heheheheh
Dr. Kelley (14:52.115)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (14:53.185)
Yeah.
cathy (14:58.51)
It's adding. So even if they're on a full process diet, you know, you're not going to change somebody around by telling them to do the reverse. So just by having this conversation, know your food sources and add some color and diversity to your diet. I mentioned earlier the rainbow colors and that's it's because of diversity of nutrients, diversity of colors. I mentioned earlier that, um,
jeanne (15:08.385)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (15:15.667)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (15:17.345)
Eat the rainbow.
Dr. Kelley (15:18.451)
Hehehehe.
cathy (15:27.982)
The microbiome feeds on fiber. That's the main food source, but it also feeds on phytonutrients. So the different colors supply different phytonutrients to the gut. So phytonutrients are those, the nutrients with, I don't know how to, like nutrients within foods that give it its potential for health. I don't know a better way to say that, but what I'm... Oh, yes, exactly.
Dr. Kelley (15:38.963)
And what are phytonutrients?
Dr. Kelley (15:50.483)
Gotcha.
jeanne (15:51.041)
Oh, nice.
Dr. Kelley (15:53.427)
I'm feeling good about my bowl of apples I have here, by the way.
jeanne (15:54.113)
That's pretty good, yeah.
cathy (15:57.838)
No, it's into, you know, I'm not sure where you guys are from, but here in Canada, we have the four seasons and our bodies are used to the four seasons. So this is why nutrition is individual for regions and for people. Here in Canada, we should be eating according to our seasons because that's how our body is working. It works according to seasons. And within each seasons, you know, in the cooler seasons, we have the root vegetables. We have things that are warm and comforting.
Dr. Kelley (16:18.099)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (16:19.137)
Mm.
cathy (16:26.894)
In the cooler seasons, you want to add lots of fruits. You want to add salads. This works directly with our gut. In other regions of the world, their microbiome may be made up very differently because of the way they are eating in their area. So getting a variety of, it's like when you exercise. If you do different exercises,
Dr. Kelley (16:33.971)
Hmm.
jeanne (16:34.721)
Hmm.
jeanne (16:44.481)
you
cathy (16:52.846)
If you're a weightlifter and then you start running for, you know, you do, you add that as part of your plan, you may find like, wow, I thought I could lift a lot. I thought it was in shape. I can't run. I can't run a kilometer without huffing and puffing. So you're adding something new in to increase your health manifold. And that's what you do with food. The more you can increase and diversify, the more you can, um, flex the microbiome muscle.
Dr. Kelley (17:02.931)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (17:20.051)
I love how you put that.
jeanne (17:21.505)
Wonderful. I'd love to also ask you a little bit about the low FODMAP diet and how it helps with gut and gut health. I've just gone through the low FODMAP diet. I just finished... Yeah, yeah, yeah, I will. So I just finished phase three and I was placed on the diet because I was struggling with being severely constipated to having severe diarrhea. I had...
Dr. Kelley (17:32.243)
Can you define that? Because I don't know what it is.
jeanne (17:49.377)
very low energy levels. I do have panic disorders, so we did think it was related to my anxiety, but I needed extra help. I had gone for the colonoscopy, everything was fine, and then I was placed on this diet. Can you maybe explain to us what is the low FODMAP diet and why are patients like me placed on that?
cathy (18:09.87)
Okay. So Amelia, I'll define it for you. So FODMAPs are fermented oligosaccharides, I have to spell it out myself, disaccharides, monosaccharides, and polyols. So in a nutshell, FODMAPs are short -chain carbohydrates. And people with IBS, it's been shown through research that people with IBS can have problems digesting FODMAPs.
Dr. Kelley (18:13.363)
Thank you.
jeanne (18:13.697)
You heard.
Dr. Kelley (18:38.323)
So what's an apple?
cathy (18:40.174)
Apple would be one of those ones that would be on, sorry.
jeanne (18:41.697)
Sorbitol. I think apple is gauze and sorbitol. It's a combination.
cathy (18:46.766)
Yeah, well, but it would not be something that would be recommended.
Dr. Kelley (18:52.083)
So no apples for Jean. Oh, Jean, you're going to have to tell me your food restrictions for when you come visit next week. Oh, okay.
jeanne (18:52.737)
Yeah.
cathy (18:54.318)
No.
jeanne (18:57.601)
No, no, I'm done. I'm done with the diet. I'm done.
cathy (18:57.934)
Well, you know...
It's extensive, which plays in right to the conversation of variety. So after explaining this, we'll talk about why this isn't a diet that is recommended for people to be staying on for an extended period of time. So what happens, and I've alluded to this in the conversation earlier, what happens these carbohydrates aren't digested properly. So they're going through the small intestine, they're not being broken down properly and water is being pulled in.
Dr. Kelley (19:04.051)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (19:14.177)
Mm -hmm.
cathy (19:31.406)
to the small intestine, then they're passing through and they're being used as energy by the microbiome, gas is being expelled. Then there's this distension and then the nervous system within the gut signals the brain, there's something going on, there's an irritation here. And that is the pain signal coming back from the brain. So pain is also another symptom. So this is exactly how the gut brain,
connection works. It's continually. And you know, you want these signals because it's signaled that something is not right. You know, you don't want to continue on the same pathway if you're not healthy, but if you don't have these signals, I mean, it's not pleasant. You know, people with IBS, a lot of people can manage their symptoms. They know the triggers. They know where the bathrooms are along their route and that they manage.
jeanne (20:17.793)
Mm -mm.
Dr. Kelley (20:27.379)
Right.
cathy (20:28.718)
But that's not the state you want to be in. So what, because there's no like cure, they haven't found a cure, a pill for it. This low FODMAP diet pulls out just a ton of food from the diet to help lessen that irritation. And depending on who you're working with and depending on the severity of symptoms, these foods can be pulled out anywhere from...
Dr. Kelley (20:32.019)
Mm -mm.
Dr. Kelley (20:46.963)
Mm -hmm.
cathy (20:55.886)
two to six weeks, I don't know, maybe longer for some people. Okay. And then you're supposed to reintroduce them one by one. And what happens, and this is the, you know, it's almost the basis of an elimination diet, is you're eliminating, you wanna try and heal the gut. You wanna try and add, you wanna eat things and do things and supplement that will help to strengthen the health of your gut.
jeanne (20:59.521)
Six weeks for me.
Dr. Kelley (21:00.435)
Wow.
cathy (21:24.078)
And then you want to start adding in foods one at a time. So you've pulled out onions. So maybe onions are the first thing that you add in. No reaction. Move on to the next food. No reaction. The reason you don't want to stay on this diet for an extended period of time is because you're pulling out a ton of very, very good foods, prebiotic and probiotic foods, apples for one. And it's...
Dr. Kelley (21:37.299)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (21:45.683)
Hmm.
cathy (21:52.142)
You don't want to do that. You want to flex that microbiome muscle by having a variety of different foods. So that's the low FODMAP diet. I don't know if you have any other questions if I could explain that to you.
jeanne (22:06.145)
Yeah. It's.
Dr. Kelley (22:07.123)
Actually, Jean, can I ask you how was your mental health during that? Because I'm, as a therapist, I'm sitting here thinking about all these things and how they play out in, you know, someone's anxiety or sensitivities or trauma.
jeanne (22:10.017)
Yeah.
jeanne (22:14.593)
Yeah.
jeanne (22:22.209)
I think the first week was the worst for me because like Cathy said, you take out a lot and like there's, I got a PDF document with the things like can and can't buy and can and can't eat. It was a lot and a lot of it was part of my daily diet. Like I eat avocados every day. You can't have avocados. We eat a lot of mushrooms. You can't eat mushrooms, onions, garlic. So the first week was tough, but after I would say two weeks,
Dr. Kelley (22:26.867)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (22:43.059)
My goodness.
jeanne (22:50.081)
You almost get, I was at a point where I had so much energy. I felt awake. Like at the end of the afternoon where I would usually be going into a lull, I was energized. I was ready for exercise. I felt better. My stomach wasn't so distended. It's weird how used to it you get to not feeling well. And then all of a sudden, when you do feel well, you're like, wow, this is how the other side lives kind of idea. But, um,
Dr. Kelley (23:06.643)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (23:14.291)
Mm -hmm
cathy (23:18.702)
Do you feel that you ate more food when you're on the diet? I know you pulled out a lot of food, but did you eat more food because you weren't in pain or you didn't have symptoms?
jeanne (23:28.929)
No, no, I felt I ate more or less the same amount as I usually did. But I will say, yeah, very restricted. But I will say when I started with phase two, which is the reintroduction phase, I was almost reluctant to start it because all of a sudden I'm feeling so good. I don't want to put anything back that's going to make me feel bad again.
Dr. Kelley (23:33.875)
Mm -hmm.
What did you eat?
Dr. Kelley (23:52.179)
Hmm.
jeanne (23:56.801)
And I actually ended up only having an issue with two things, lactose and gauze. So gauze is like soy, soybeans, almonds, pistachios and everything else I was kind of fine with. Then I went into phase three, which is you understand what is your issue and now you're reintegrating everything back into your diet. And I still feel really good. It's so good to not be constantly distended and in pain and bloated.
Dr. Kelley (24:03.507)
Hmm.
jeanne (24:26.017)
And now when I feel that way, at least I have a way to go back and say, okay, so what did I eat yesterday? I understand what my issues are. And I don't know if you know the FODMAP app, Cathy, from Monash University. Yeah, I still have it. And it's like a little diary that you go into and you say, what have you eaten today? What were your symptoms like?
cathy (24:38.126)
Yes.
on us.
jeanne (24:52.929)
and you kind of track it that way. So for me, it's been a tough in the beginning, but a worthwhile experience for sure. But I will say when my anxiety hits, like I recently, two weeks ago, I had a relapse, then it's all bits are off. Like then it feels to me like it doesn't matter how well I eat. If I've had a panic attack for a week after, like everything is just so messed up. It's like.
Dr. Kelley (25:11.955)
Mmm.
jeanne (25:18.945)
Like you were saying, it's really that gut -brain connection. Like something's wrong, something's wrong.
Dr. Kelley (25:23.731)
Mmm.
cathy (25:24.142)
There's no straight line to the remedy. And that's why it's not just nutrition that is helpful for the health of the gut. It's your lifestyle, it's your sleep habit, it's your exercise habit. It's a minutia of things. And that's why it's very hard for people with IBS to be rectified. But the one thing I wanna make clear when I'm talking about the FODMAP diet and the health of the gut in general is that...
Dr. Kelley (25:26.963)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (25:27.457)
Mmm.
jeanne (25:35.073)
Mm.
Mm.
cathy (25:52.462)
Whole food shouldn't bother us. If our gut is the way it should be, if our mucosal lining is intact, if we have a good ecosystem of gut microbiome, whole food shouldn't bother us. So we can't be afraid of the food necessarily. We need to understand that that too is a symptom. That if you are eating an avocado,
Dr. Kelley (25:55.091)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (26:14.771)
Mmm.
jeanne (26:15.073)
Mmm.
cathy (26:18.254)
It shouldn't disrupt you. It means there's still more healing to be done. You may never get back onto certain foods. I mean, nobody is perfect, but the fear of food, I find pervasive these days in society. So I think it's very important to understand that. Yes, I know our food isn't as helpful as it should be, and it's not as full of nutrients as it should be. However.
jeanne (26:23.585)
Okay.
jeanne (26:35.681)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (26:36.019)
Mm -hmm.
cathy (26:48.078)
You want the joy of food to be within what you're eating and not coming to the table and sitting down and saying, I can't have that and I can't have that. Can't is a negative, right? And that's why with these diets that you're pulling so much out of, in and of itself, it's a negative. And we want to be, we really want to be emphasizing the positive in life, in nutrition, in all over. These are why these are short gap stop.
jeanne (26:54.177)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (27:00.179)
Mm hmm.
jeanne (27:00.737)
Mm.
jeanne (27:08.065)
Mm.
Mm.
cathy (27:17.134)
solutions at the moment that are very effective for most but not all IBS sufferers.
jeanne (27:22.977)
Not all. And I think that's also why in the reintroduction phase, you have three days in which to introduce the new food and they tell you the exact amount, like a quarter cup or half a cup. And my dietician had told me that it's really, really important that if you could tolerate something on day one, but you didn't tolerate the day two dose or day three dose to not cut it out of your diet completely, you have to...
cathy (27:31.054)
Okay.
Dr. Kelley (27:48.595)
Hmm.
jeanne (27:50.241)
at least try and incorporate the dose you could handle still in your diet to make sure. So this, I think coincides to what you're saying now. You really shouldn't be in a position where you're trying to just cut out, cut out, cut out.
cathy (28:02.478)
I mean, with the end, you know, the FODMAP diet has been shown to be so beneficial, but go into it with the intention of knowing that it is a short -term measure. And while you are doing this, and as you said, it's restrictive and can be difficult. While you're doing this, you're also doing other things. You know, you want to sleep. You want to, you may be up your exercise a bit more. You want to work on your stress. You know, these are other things that, yes, hydration. These are other things that are part and parcel of healing the gut.
jeanne (28:12.193)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (28:12.531)
Mm hmm.
Dr. Kelley (28:19.667)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (28:20.641)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (28:25.267)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm -hmm -hmm -hmm.
jeanne (28:26.145)
Water.
cathy (28:32.27)
So nutrition is cornerstone, but it's not the only piece of the building. So you have to incorporate a lot of things when you want to, or when you want to deal with any disease and when you want to be healing the gut.
Dr. Kelley (28:39.763)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (28:48.851)
It makes me think how you're talking about the holistic package of it. So many of my, because I specialize in trauma, so many of my trauma clients have got issues. So many of them. And I'm curious, we're discussing a lot of the importance of the gut. How does, in your opinion, how does the brain or the vagal nerve, which signals whether we are safe or not, to the body, to the whole body as...
cathy (28:52.846)
for me.
jeanne (28:53.185)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (29:18.163)
As we know, the vagus nerve is not even just the gut, it's all of our systems. In your opinion, I'm not sure if you have an opinion on this, but do you believe that things like trauma can increase these issues and that can those folks, people with trauma or high sensitivities really benefit from these kind of shakeup diets or I don't know, these ways of kind of resetting?
cathy (29:21.614)
Yeah, yeah.
cathy (29:45.198)
Um, I do. Um, when you're talking about PTSD, that's a whole, that's a whole other area. Um, and yes, I'm, there are many studies showing that people that have been through trauma have got health issues. Um, the way that therapists deal with trauma, in my opinion, can add to gut issues or they can help with the gut issues.
Dr. Kelley (29:48.403)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (29:55.059)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (30:02.42)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (30:13.139)
Mm -hmm.
cathy (30:13.486)
Don't forget, this gut -brain connection is not just, you know, a theory and a thought process and it's a biological connection. So, you know, there can be disruptions within these connections physiologically if the vagal nerve is not in good shape, if this enteric nervous system is not on point. So all of these pieces of the puzzle can go into having, you know, problems in mental health.
Dr. Kelley (30:21.203)
Right.
jeanne (30:21.921)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (30:27.475)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (30:41.203)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (30:41.921)
Mm -hmm.
cathy (30:42.638)
PTSD, in my opinion, this is not my area, it does start here. It's an upstream going downstream. So I would never say that it's as easy as doing a FODMAP diet to remedy someone who has PTSD, but I think it's part of the puzzle. And I think what can be very important, I work with a lot of cancer patients, is when you're giving somebody who is going through PTSD,
Dr. Kelley (30:48.531)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (31:02.561)
Hmm.
cathy (31:12.526)
or through a diagnosis. When you give them something that they can work on and control, again, you're adding a positive. And when you can feel in control of something, even if it's a smaller portion of it, you're moving in the right direction. So whether you feel that this could be a placebo effect or whether you want to do a whole gut analysis and take tests and then retest after, that's up to people as practitioners. But I very much believe that if you can give people
Dr. Kelley (31:17.331)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (31:19.873)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (31:35.219)
Mm -hmm.
cathy (31:41.678)
steps to help. You know, you don't say I'm going to cure you, but this can be beneficial. And if they see some of the benefits, then another step can be taken. And it is part of the holistic approach to dealing with PTSD.
Dr. Kelley (31:57.427)
And as far as I know, I just want to clarify as someone, you know, who trauma is something that I focus a lot on. More and more recent research and treatments are focusing on the bottom up approach, actually, with trauma. That the body is traumatized and that the brain holds stories, but the stories don't even have to be intact. They don't even have to have actual memories connected. There's a lot of this body memory. We were fortunate to talk to one of the...
jeanne (32:10.785)
Mm.
cathy (32:13.102)
Mm -hmm.
cathy (32:24.526)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (32:27.507)
founders of this, Dr. Peter Levine, and that's, you know, the somatic experiencing is all about the fact that the body experiences the trauma and can hold traumas. I just love how you're able to create this connection though that it's so attainable. It's something that even though you can't fix trauma, even though you can't, you can, I'm saying you can fix responses, but...
jeanne (32:34.721)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (32:53.651)
You can't go back in time and change what happened is what I'm saying. And you might not be able to on a light switch change a panic disorder or change the genetics that lead to certain mental health issues. I love the hope in the message of what you're saying is that this is something you can do. You can make choices about what's on your plate. You can make choices about how you eat and that can impact things like the body's response to trauma or anxiety. I just I love that.
cathy (32:55.95)
place.
jeanne (33:15.041)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (33:22.451)
message that you're expressing.
cathy (33:24.526)
Well, there has to be hope when you're working with people of any, anyone who has been diagnosed with anything. People need to feel they have a place in their own health. You know, if people feel that their only remedy is, you know, their next session, you know, what do they do in the meantime? How did they work on their health? And where do they get their own pat on the back? Like, hey, you know what? Today I had breakfast and you know, I feel kind of good.
Dr. Kelley (33:27.315)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (33:36.819)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (33:37.505)
Mm.
jeanne (33:47.809)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (33:54.757)
Mm -hmm.
cathy (33:54.862)
and then you move on and then you move on. So whether or not you're dealing with the actual incident of PTSD, you are building positivity in another aspect of life. I don't, PTSD and trauma is not my, you know, it's not my forte, but I do see it a lot with cancer patients. And, you know, I'll say, you know, this is one of the things we talk about and,
Dr. Kelley (34:08.147)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (34:16.883)
I would imagine, yeah.
jeanne (34:17.953)
Mm.
cathy (34:23.566)
because I was a breast cancer patient as well, I can totally understand. And it's not something that you need to forget about or you need to deal with. You know, it's there, it's a part of the whole fabric of what's going on in your body. And when these issues, you know, when you get triggers or when something comes to surface, if you're equipped in other areas, you're better equipped to deal with it, you know?
jeanne (34:29.185)
Sorry.
Dr. Kelley (34:29.683)
Hmm.
jeanne (34:50.689)
That's amazing.
Dr. Kelley (34:51.027)
Love that. Absolutely.
cathy (34:53.518)
You can't, I'm really passionate about this. A lot of people forget, we got to de -stress you, we've got to, it's not realistic. Okay? A lot of it is not realistic. So teaching people how they can improve in other aspects of their life so that when triggers happen or when stress arises, it's not straight up. It can be just those steps, giving the people the...
Dr. Kelley (34:55.507)
Thank you.
jeanne (35:03.201)
Mm.
jeanne (35:18.593)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (35:18.867)
Mm -hmm.
cathy (35:23.118)
the hope that, you know what, maybe next time when this happens, it won't be as bad. And it's not all that I am. It's very important. And that's the beauty of the research, the beauty of the research. And it's also the beauty that it's our control. You know, there's not a pill to create a microbiome. We have to build our microbiome. And what's better in life than setting out to do something and accomplishing it? And those are great things.
Dr. Kelley (35:26.675)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
jeanne (35:27.617)
Mm -hmm.
That's so well said.
Dr. Kelley (35:39.123)
and
Dr. Kelley (35:50.195)
Absolutely.
jeanne (35:52.257)
I think, and that brings me to important questions, which I think, as you're saying, setting out to do something and accomplishing it. Do you have like your three top tips that you would give to somebody really struggling with symptoms at the moment because of stress? Like what are things that they, the three things that they can do today to see if it can help or make them feel better?
cathy (36:15.79)
My number one, and this is not just something off the top of my head, gratitude and journaling. I pair them together. And gratitude, not just, you know, you wake up in the morning, you put your feet on the ground, I'm happy to be awake, happy to be able to approach another day. But I find it's very impactful when you're putting your head down to say things like, what did I do well today?
What am I going to try and do tomorrow? And what's something that just was great? You know, it was a beautiful sunny day. I went for a great walk. I took a step towards building a better pantry and tomorrow maybe I'll continue with that. So that, you know, you're seeing things, you know, when you sit down and you say, even if it's the one thing, what did I do well today? You know, a lot of people will just, there's gotta be one thing that everyone does well during the day.
Dr. Kelley (36:44.723)
Hmm.
jeanne (36:44.929)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (36:49.971)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (36:57.235)
Heh heh.
jeanne (36:59.937)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (37:06.547)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (37:12.947)
Mm hmm.
cathy (37:12.974)
Even if it's like not saying what you wanted to say, you know things like that, you know, I controlled my tongue today So that to me and then journaling and in so many respects that you you do a food journal where you're you're putting what you ate and everything and I that's a key piece of protocol that I use but journaling You know, maybe what you went through maybe your progress is maybe what you stumbled upon Writing down things has been shown scientifically
jeanne (37:16.641)
Yeah.
cathy (37:42.318)
to benefit the health of the brain. So if you can do that, that's number one. Number two, you've got to try and get into a good sleep routine. Nothing impacts mental health like poor sleep. You just, on so many levels, you know, not just biologically what's going on if you don't sleep, you get up in the morning and you just, if you're not functioning, if you're tired, you might not want to put in the work that you need to do that day. So getting a good sleep routine down, nailing it.
Dr. Kelley (37:43.955)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (37:50.657)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (38:06.003)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (38:06.849)
you
cathy (38:11.246)
And a piece of that, which would be the third thing, is movement. And I use movement versus exercise because exercise scares some people. Get up and move. Get up and use your joints. And again, this isn't just for mental health. Physiologically, when you're moving, you're moving the fluids within your body, helping to detoxify. You're getting your body into a better circadian rhythm. All this is essential for mental health, all of it. So those are the three things.
Dr. Kelley (38:16.019)
Hmm.
jeanne (38:31.361)
Mm.
jeanne (38:40.193)
Oh.
cathy (38:41.198)
I mean, there are lots of things, but those are always the ones that are my go -to that I've seen the most impact with. And again, all under our control.
jeanne (38:48.705)
This is so wonderful. And it's been such a wonderful conversation. I mean, I think I know so many people who have issues with this and now having been through this journey recently myself, it's such an important part of our being. It's such an important part that surprisingly we pay very little attention to. So I'm so glad we got to speak to you today. Is there anywhere you'd like to send our audience or some information you would like?
to pass on to our audience.
cathy (39:20.526)
I have basically built everything onto my website. So that's kathybsa .com, at kathybsa on Instagram. Those are the places where I kind of live the most and try and get my message out. So, and then all my contact information is on the website.
jeanne (39:38.241)
Thank you so much. Thank you for your time and we really enjoyed speaking with you.
cathy (39:41.838)
It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Bye bye.
Dr. Kelley (39:41.939)
Thank you. Bye.