Dr. Jessica Stern, from Doctor Radio on SiriusXM, joins us today. We're taking a deep dive into navigating and thriving in romantic relationships with ADHD partners. BONUS: We also chat about navigating this type of relationship as a highly sensitive person.
Dr. Jessica Stern discusses ADHD and its impact on relationships, particularly in couples where one or both partners have ADHD, or where one partner is a highly sensitive person. Dr. Jessica Stern is the host of Doctor Radio on Sirius XM, advisor for Wondermind and runs her own consultancy.
Key Takeaways:
Links for Dr. Jessica Stern:
Website | Instagram | LinkedIn | Doctor Radio
So, okay, awesome. All right, so we can get started, right? Okay, awesome. So, so happy to have you here, Dr. Jessica. I've had the pleasure of being on your XM radio show before, and you are the best type.
Dr. Jeanne (02:22.704)
Okay, cool.
Dr. Jeanne (02:31.28)
Yeah. So from a tech standpoint, we're all good. You can just
Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:49.659)
of I believe kind of self -help voice because well -informed but so compassionate in the way that you talk to people and synthesize everything you talk about. And that was why I was so excited to have you here today. So could you tell our listeners a little bit about some of the work that you do and today's topic is ADHD. So really also what got you excited about that topic.
Jessica Stern (03:15.614)
well, first of all, thank you so much for your kind words. That means so much to me. So yeah, so what I do is I do a variety of different types of services that help people or systems live their best life. And ultimately what that includes is I provide therapy with my area of specialty being ADHD. I also focus on things like burnout and what I call to be non -toxic productivity as well. I do speaking engagements, consult with companies.
And all of this is to serve the purpose of helping people learn skills and information to really empower themselves and live aligned with their values. That's very much a focus and a passion of mine is helping people figure out what's important to them and how they can live aligned with those values. And in the context of ADHD, this is really important because so many people either struggle or have found really meaningful ways to compensate.
for their ADHD or harness the strengths of their ADHD and just want to level up. And so that's a lot of what I do, both in a clinical sense and a non -clinical sense. I host a radio show on SiriusXM on the channel Dr. Radio, which is channel 110. I'm an advisor for Wondermind, which is Selena Gomez's mental health company. And then I do a whole bunch of other things really to support the community and mental health and wellness.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:39.205)
Awesome. Out of curiosity, how did you get involved in the Wonder Mind? Is it an
Dr. Jeanne (04:40.53)
I'm
Jessica Stern (04:46.574)
So essentially what had happened is, so Wondermind is effectively a mental fitness media company. And what had happened was I do a lot of media work. I work a lot with journalists and reporters, producers, directors, et cetera. And I had worked with a journalist, a bunch whose passion is mental health. And she's phenomenal. And she has been with the company since its inception.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:55.73)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:08.488)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (05:13.654)
recommended me to the company. so before the company was founded, they reached out and said, hey, we think you'd be a great fit for our advisory committee. And here we
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:20.205)
awesome.
So wasn't like you and Selena just ran into each other at a cocktail bar. So as far as ADHD goes, mean, I know, you know, this is a passion of mine with having my book just come out powered by ADHD and the whole premise was empowering specifically women, but really anyone to not see it as necessarily a disorder, even though it can cause
Jessica Stern (05:27.151)
No, no, no, no, I wish, but no.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:52.505)
so many struggles, but really just a deviation, a different type of brain, and there needs to be different types of ways of living to excel with that brain. But you specifically focus on something that I'm selfishly super curious about, being married to someone who has very high inattentive ADHD, is focusing on couples and how it impacts them.
So I am so curious to jump off with this. What do you think is kind of the cornerstone or most important thing for couples? And I guess we'll say where maybe both have ADHD or one have ADHD when it comes to communication and how to even get started with coping with this as a couple.
Jessica Stern (06:45.248)
Yeah, so there are a couple of important pieces here. What happens in any relationship, regardless of whether there's ADHD or not, is over the course of the relationship cycles are built. There are these patterns of interaction between both partners that are built and sometimes those cycles are helpful and they're healthy and they're productive and sometimes they hold you back. Sometimes they have
elements of them that are not so helpful to the relationship. And again, this is true of any relationship, whether it's a romantic relationship, a friendship, whatever it might be. What ends up happening with ADHD is that ADHD can provide a set of opportunities related to the diagnosis that can plug into that cycle in a way that may or may not be helpful. And much like anything,
it can feed the cycle. And this is true also for anxiety, by the way. If one partner has very high levels of anxiety, that can also add features of different parts to a cycle that can be fed. And this is true for anything. So both partners will typically bring their sets of personality traits and their experiences to a relationship. So it's not just one partner, it's both partners.
It just happens to be that with ADHD, there are very particular ways that are very common that can bring an element that can be tricky. I think what's especially interesting is when one partner has ADHD and another partner has something else like, let's say anxiety. This is actually an interaction I see often where those two things can clash bitterly and can be quite complicated in a variety. Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:23.517)
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:30.808)
I could see
Jessica Stern (08:33.524)
So it's really, really fascinating. I think what is particularly tricky about ADHD and relationships is that there are elements of ADHD that can cause these disruptions to the relationship that can be unpredictable or can feel X, Y, or Z. And what I mean by that is some of the things that we know about ADHD is that there can be high levels of impulsivity. Not everybody with ADHD is impulsive, but we do see it with a higher frequency.
Communication can be potentially compromised if someone doesn't have good follow through, they forget to respond to texts, they forget to communicate an important thing that needs to be done in the relationship. We know rejection sensitivity is another feature that people are starting to talk a little bit more about. That can add a feature to the relationship amongst... Yeah, so rejection sensitivity... -huh.
Dr. Jeanne (09:13.116)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (09:25.286)
What's that? Sorry. What's rejection sensitivity?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:28.199)
Ahem.
Jessica Stern (09:32.012)
So rejection sensitivity dysphoria is a piece of ADHD that's getting more attention these days in which someone with ADHD might be just like the name sounds a little bit more sensitive to rejection. And what happens is if they anticipate being rejected or if they experience what feels like rejection, they might be a little bit more.
dysregulated emotionally, they might feel a little bit more angry, a little bit more anxious, whatever it might be. And then it can lead to a behavioral response that can either be impulsive or avoidant or whatever it might be. And when this happens in a relationship, it might have unintentional consequences to the other partner or to the interaction in which it's erupting.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:11.752)
Mm
Jessica Stern (10:22.658)
And there are variety of ways in which this can unfold and manifest. What we also know about ADHD is that there are lot of ways in which the behaviors or the symptoms of ADHD can look a little bit different than what they mean. And the most common one, and this is probably one of the most common, if not the most common thing I see in couples, is someone with ADHD forgets either once or consistently to do something that their partner has asked.
and then they look like, yeah, exactly. And then what do they look like? They look lazy, right? And then their partner says, they are just being lazy. And sometimes it's laziness and usually it's not. Usually it's not laziness, it's forgetfulness, it's inattention, it's anxiety. We know that anxiety is one of the things that co -occurs with ADHD most frequently. But what happens is if you have partner A,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:53.083)
feeling seen.
Dr. Jeanne (10:53.264)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:59.665)
Yes,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:09.629)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (11:21.752)
who doesn't have ADHD and maybe has a little bit better follow through. And then partner B who has ADHD and forgets to do things. What oftentimes will happen, and this is a common cycle, is ADHD will get, sorry, partner A will get frustrated with their partner who has ADHD and say, how come you didn't do this again? I asked you to do it. I feel like you're lazy and you don't care in this relationship. I'm the one who's carrying all the burden.
And then partner B with ADHD is potentially gonna get frustrated and then is either going to argue with their other partner or is gonna do the opposite and feel really crummy about themselves. How come I can't do anything right? How come I always disappoint my partner? What's wrong with me? And then that can actually exacerbate avoidance where they do even less because they're afraid that they're going to mess it up. And then that just feeds the cycle.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:50.973)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:04.413)
Hmm.
Jessica Stern (12:20.15)
So that is one example of one of these common interactional patterns we see in couples.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:26.685)
You know, I was joking that I felt seen, but I feel like I should unpack a bit and then I would be curious your thoughts. So I'm married to someone who has pretty prevalent ADHD. I kind of have some of the traits, but mine is more so I'm very, very high HSP. Like very...
neurodivergent in that high sensitivity, very active limbic system. I'm kind of always scanning and I've got my radar on everything all the time. So you take me, who borders on that kind of like anxious energy on top of stuff, overly on top of stuff. And then you have my partner B, who really wants to be on top of stuff, but you literally just described our interaction. However,
I tend to use this, feel like you're not listening to me. That's more what I say, not you're being lazy, because that almost feels too mean, but my trigger is not being listened to. And now I have a podcast. No, I'm just kidding. But I wonder why. So my curiosity is, what do you do? Like how?
Jessica Stern (13:18.988)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (13:28.652)
Mm -hmm.
No! Take that!
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:44.967)
to handle that because it can be so, it can feel so personal. And it's like what partner A needs and partner B needs sometimes is so opposite. Even if you were genuinely, I find in an odd way because I'm highly sensitive and I'm into, I'm also a high sensation seeker. So I love diversity and newness. And I think I was attracted to someone with ADHD. So it's like that initial attraction is there.
But the long term, the longevity of not driving each other crazy is a little tricky. So what do do?
Jessica Stern (14:23.936)
Yeah, so before I get to the what do do part, I just want to comment on what you just talked about in terms of the attraction, which is what's so fascinating is because I hear this also frequently is someone the reason oftentimes partners with anxiety wind up with partners with ADHD is there is this level of attraction if someone is very anxious
They are quote unquote what they might consider to be type A. They have good follow through. They're always very planful, deliberate, intentional. We know that folks with ADHD tend to be more spontaneous, less planful. And in the early stages of dating, this can feel very exciting. And this is where the opposites attract mantra can come to be. However, exactly like you're talking about in terms of the sustainability.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:01.081)
Mm hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:10.951)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (15:14.432)
of a relationship, eventually this can cause a potential problem. Now, like most problems, we can work through this, which is what's awesome and why I'm so passionate in doing this work. To get to your question about what do we do about this, there's a variety of different things that can be done. What I do, so I work with couples, I lead a workshop specifically on this, and then I also
a non group version where I meet with couples individually and do consultation with them, couple of sessions where we talk about their cycle and we help them understand different ways to potentially mitigate the ADHD in the relationship is first and foremost, this is going to sound so obvious and so trite as communication. Now everyone's sitting there being like, duh, communication is important always in a relationship. course. Right.
Dr. Jeanne (15:57.424)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:59.571)
Don't turn the podcast off.
Dr. Jeanne (16:05.868)
Jessica Stern (16:07.106)
But why? The struggle is exactly like you're talking about is that both partners need different things. And the issue is when one partner is not receiving something from their other partner, it might feel either deliberate or maybe not deliberate, but it might feel like something that's not changing despite repeated feedback. So exactly like you're talking about, what oftentimes happens is one partner, partner A, will say, maybe it's not, you're lazy, but maybe it's, you're not listening to me.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:14.749)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (16:37.708)
And when partner B consistently does the thing that evokes this sensation or this idea of you're not listening to me, that's where it's going to feel like partner A is not being heard. So exactly Dr. Neely, like you were talking about is you might continue to feel like, how come this isn't changing? So what's important about the communication part is to start to be observant and curious about your cycles as a couple.
So when you're having an argument, when you're having a fight afterwards to kind of look back on it and be curious about what happened. And what usually happens, and I always say this, is it's not about the thing that started it. It's about something that's deeper than the thing. So if you're having an argument about the fact that the dishes weren't done, it's not about the dishes. It's about what the dishes represent. And so being curious about that, I think, is important.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:23.645)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (17:28.764)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (17:33.91)
I think the next piece is finding ways to have both partners have their needs met within the confines of what they're capable of delivering to the other partner. I think one of the struggles with couples and ADHD is that oftentimes folks with ADHD don't necessarily operate in the same way that people without ADHD such that they can't deliver.
the thing that their partner wants in the exact way that their partner wants. So this is where it's important to be curious again about how can I give my partner the thing that they want, but within the context of the skill set and the mental resources that I have. And that's the part that I think is really tricky, but sort of unlocks the code.
Dr. Jeanne (18:05.392)
Mm.
Dr. Jeanne (18:21.116)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:26.387)
It kind of makes me think of using a strength -based model. I have seen, I mean, I've been married. I've been with my husband for almost 18 years now, And when I became less frustrated by his ADHD was when I started to, I took on things that I am just naturally better at and stopped expecting him to do them. And I offload very,
Dr. Jeanne (18:26.406)
Yeah.
Jessica Stern (18:29.699)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:55.055)
very enthusiastically offload things to him that he's better at. And I'm not saying that we never are frustrated. It probably happens more often than the non ADHD couple, but it does help a bit because I noticed that's one thing with my clients. They just keep banging their head against the wall because they're expecting their neurodiverse partner to operate the way that they do.
Dr. Jeanne (19:20.547)
I'm curious also to know a little bit more about what you just explained, especially around communication, because I am such a fan of that. So I have panic disorder and my husband is on the autism spectrum. He's never been diagnosed with ADHD. I would not know if he has ADHD, but he does struggle a lot to focus. That being said, he has a lot on his mind always. And
interaction between us would always be, he would ask me, say for example, we have dinner guests coming over and I would be at stress level here because this needs to be done, this needs to be done, this, and he will ask me, okay, what can I do to help you? And I will say ABC and he will just disappear. And then he will come back and I'm like, but I asked you to do this and he said, yes, well, I did D, and F. I needed you to do A, and C. And then he feels like he's done.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:10.396)
Ha!
Dr. Jeanne (20:15.822)
a lot and the task that he did would be big tasks but I feel like he feels his things are more important than what I asked him to do because thank you so much for doing DNF but I really needed A, B and C. So after we communicated about that you know it's better now because now he will come to me and ask me okay what do you need from me before I get busy. So now I know okay like he's already preempting that his mind is gonna
Jessica Stern (20:30.186)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:41.531)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (20:45.37)
wander and I've learned to not ask for many things to rather say okay I need you to do A and then when you're done with that can you just come check where I'm at because I may have done B and C already and that works way better but when I say can you do A B and C it's like all over the place like
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:46.141)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:51.154)
Yes.
Jessica Stern (21:07.512)
I think that's such a great point because what you're talking about is how to be more concrete and specific. I think what happens both with autism spectrum disorder and with ADHD is that there is this concreteness and the specificity that can be really important in communication because theoretically what could happen is your partner could say, did D, E, and F and I'm going to do A, B, and C. And you might think to yourself, well, no, I needed you to do A, B, and C first.
Right, and so that's where someone can say, okay, this is what I need you to do before you do the things, and that's why I think it's wonderful that your husband has now learned to say, what do you need from me before I do my things? That's really helpful. I think the other helpful thing that can be sort of reparative in relationships or productive is explaining why something is important. I think what oftentimes happens is,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:38.861)
Hmm.
Jessica Stern (22:05.594)
if we give our partners instruction on something that we need, if they don't necessarily immediately understand why it's relevant or why it's useful, they might not A, understand the urgency or priority of it, or B, it's not going to resonate with them quite as deeply. And especially for someone who has a hard time holding attention, the person with ADHD might get lost and distracted and not prioritize the thing that's actually quite important to you. And so,
Dr. Jeanne (22:21.01)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:23.815)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (22:34.454)
If you can say to your partner, this is what I need from you for this reason, this will be helpful for me for this reason. They can start to understand the reasons for that, which will give them a little bit more rationale for why it's relevant. And they can potentially, hopefully connect to it a little bit more emotionally. Because ultimately, in healthy relationships, partners love each other, right? And your partner wants you to be happy.
Dr. Jeanne (22:34.546)
Mm.
Jessica Stern (23:04.706)
And so if they can understand why something is important to you or will be helpful for you, they're going to have a little bit more buy -in for how to get it done or how to prioritize it, which is meaningful.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:13.907)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (23:13.98)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:19.68)
I love that advice so much and it resonates again for me because I'm thinking of times where I will ask. So my husband is very good at if I ask him to do something, he'll do it. But if I don't initiate and I don't use the mental load to ask, it usually doesn't happen and he's off in some other meticulous idea or task. But there have been times where I'll ask, can you do A B?
or C or just A or B and he'll go do it but kind of in this really like weird, not even close to what I asked way. And then I get frustrated like that is not what I asked you to do. Why did you do this instead? And then he'll then give me the reason which doesn't always align with what I'm wanting. And so I'm hearing you and thinking, okay, if I ask for A or B,
Dr. Jeanne (24:01.35)
Yeah
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:15.107)
And I will say I've recognized, and luckily we've established this is not a punitive thing, this is a dynamic in our relationship that we have agreed upon. If he's distracted, he has given me permission to gently say, can you look at me? And it's not in a way that's demoralizing or putting him down, it's because we need to lock gaze, we need to have each other's attention. So sometimes I find that's helpful.
I even find if I'm close enough to him, if I touch him, like if I reach over and I kind of make contact, that can kind of grab his attention too. But that's, I'm not going to like sprint across the house just to touch his shoulder to ask him to do something. But that being said, when I ask him A or B, I'm hearing you say to add in, this is my reason or, and how did you put it again? You said it really nicely.
Jessica Stern (24:53.736)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (24:53.85)
Hahaha
Dr. Jeanne (25:07.734)
Ask the why, why it matters to
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:10.659)
yes. Can you do A or B because or, for this reason? So here's my question for you about this. While on one hand, I'm excited and I'm like, great. Another coping skill I can use with my ADHD husband. The other part of me is like, God, another coping skill I have to use with my ADHD husband. So my curiosity is the kind of the burnout or the impact that can happen on the non -HD partner and how to navigate
Jessica Stern (25:36.13)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (25:40.258)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:41.126)
because that can be a very real thing too.
Jessica Stern (25:44.438)
Yes, this is very, very common. And one of the things that I talk about frequently with couples is exactly this, the burnout. So I have a couple of thoughts and recommendations on how to mitigate this. One is, especially for couples who are sort of earlier on in this process, but honestly, this is sort of like a lifelong thing to be able to do is to ask your partner with ADHD to come up with the solutions on their own when possible.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:54.227)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (26:13.708)
And what you can do is you don't say like, hey, you figure it out. You have ADHD. You just figure it out. Right. It's sort of saying, Hey, I know you have ADHD. These are the ways in which things are hard for you. Can you give me a sense of what you think will work for you? Or what are the solutions that we can work on together that'll work within your strengths or whatever it might be. So it's a very well -intentioned way of framing it. It's a very well -meaning way of framing it.
It's a win -win for two reasons. One, it takes the burden off the non -ADHD partner. And B, it has a higher likelihood for success because the person with ADHD knows inherently and instinctually what's gonna work well for them. So hopefully, presumably they're gonna pick something that they're gonna be successful at. Now that's one piece. Yeah, and I think it can be really helpful. And if the partner with ADHD comes up with a solution,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:44.093)
Ahem.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:02.867)
That makes a lot of sense.
Jessica Stern (27:11.702)
It's something that can be tweaked along the way and the non ADHD partner can add input and feedback and observation to it. But that's, think one way of mitigating the cycle of burnout. And I find that this can be quite helpful for people.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:29.519)
Mm -hmm. What if both have ADHD? We have not talked about that.
Dr. Jeanne (27:29.842)
Hmm, yeah.
Jessica Stern (27:33.162)
yes, this happens. Yeah, yes, yes, yes. This happens a lot. So what's interesting about couples where both partners have ADHD is frequently the two partners will have either a different type of ADHD or their symptoms will manifest a little bit differently. So you might have someone who has a largely inattentive type and the other partner has an inattentive or hyperactive type.
Dr. Jeanne (27:33.663)
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:41.487)
Yeah.
Jessica Stern (28:01.868)
Or maybe they both have the same subtype, but they find that they have struggles in different ways. And so in this case, what can be helpful is that each party, each partner can take a look at the areas in which they may be struggle or they have a little bit of a harder time. And then for both partners to kind of come together and say, okay, this is what each one of us brings to the table. How can we find a way around this?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:27.123)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (28:30.156)
because there is a higher likelihood that they will have similar things that non -ADHD partners might not have, is there might be an extra need to have placeholders or these sort of contingency strategies that will be helpful. So if both partners have a tendency to be late to things, because they both have timeliness, right, you're gonna need like a little bit of an extra security system to make sure that the couple leaves the house when they need to.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:52.455)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (28:58.498)
Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.
Jessica Stern (29:00.01)
Right. And so this is where it can be helpful to have that situation. In these cases, there is a little bit less of the sensation or experience of burnout because likely both partners are going to have to work through it. However, what I do find is interesting is sometimes I'll see couples where both partners have ADHD, but one of those partners was diagnosed as a kid and has gone through therapy for it is maybe on a stimulant. And then the other partner was just diagnosed last
And so they might actually be, yes, yes. In these cases, they might actually be in very different places in their journey, which can sort of lead to an interesting dynamic. It's not necessarily problematic, but it might feel like the partner who's been doing a lot of work on their ADHD for 15, 20 years.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:28.805)
Unfortunately, usually the woman. Yeah, good point. Good point.
Dr. Jeanne (29:30.38)
Yeah. Or they don't know. They don't know they have it.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:42.333)
Hmm.
Jessica Stern (29:54.188)
has a rhythm for how to manage their ADHD when the other partner is sort of newer in their journey of learning skillsets and things of this nature.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:02.19)
Mm -hmm. That makes a lot of sense because ADHD is, I think we're all learning, is also a strength. There are some really amazing things that come from that brain. And it's probably also why ADHD people, I think, are actually pretty darn good at dating.
The ability to hyper focus, the ability to engage, the ability to mirror emotions are some strengths that those with ADHD can bring to the table in dating and kind of that early phase. But you had said something, you said a term, I want to make sure our listeners know exactly what time blindness is, what it looks like
if you have maybe like a practical idea of how a couple could deal with that, because I feel like that is one of the most common. I feel like not we don't both have the same brain, but I feel like we're in different time zones sometimes. so so what is time blindness and what is a tip that you would give to couples to deal with
Jessica Stern (31:05.883)
Mmmmm
Jessica Stern (31:13.6)
Yeah, so time blindness is the difficulty in perceiving or estimating how long something takes or how long something will take. What time it is, and I don't necessarily mean exactly what time it is on your watch, but sort of observing and estimating time and having an ability to perceive where you are in space and time can
very, very tricky and this is especially true for when people are trying to estimate time that something will take. So whether it's how long a task will take or how long it will take for you to get to work or whatever it might be, oftentimes this is very, very common. Someone with ADHD might say, oh, this will only take me five minutes. And then like 45 minutes later, they're still working on it and their partner's like, hey, what's going on? Right, and this
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:45.149)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:03.367)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (32:04.448)
a large reason for why people are very prone to being late. There are other reasons for why that can happen as well, but oftentimes even just in larger timelines, people might say, I have a couple of months until that deadline. I had a conversation, two conversations about this with people this week where they're like, I didn't realize that was going to come up so quickly. And it was like three months down the line was where they thought this deadline was going to be. And then it passed two days ago. And
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:32.989)
Well, and just to say deadlines in a relationship could be things like anniversaries, birthdays, remembering important things that matter to your partner.
Jessica Stern (32:37.41)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (32:42.388)
Exactly, exactly. So it can be really frustrating. It can be tricky. Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:49.389)
So what is something that you think is really helpful
Jessica Stern (32:53.292)
Yeah, so I think in the shorter term for particularly for tasks, what I encourage people to do individually, and this can be helpful in the relationship too, is to spend about a week or two observing tasks that you commonly do and just estimate the time. What we do is I do an exercise called time estimation, time allocation. So let's say you have a task that you need to
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:09.724)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (33:17.058)
whether it's a routine for getting ready for work in the morning or whether it's cleaning the bathroom or it's completing an assignment for work or whatever it might be. Before you do that task, just take a quick estimate of how long you think it's gonna take. Then roughly time it and then log how long it actually took you. What's interesting about this is that people very often under or overestimate how long something's gonna take.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:38.589)
Mmm.
Jessica Stern (33:45.102)
And the trend is that they tend to underestimate how long something they want to do will take and overestimate how long something they don't want to take. So what that looks like is someone might say, mm -hmm. Someone might say, oh, you know, I'm going to play this video game or I'm going to do this other thing that I want to do. It's only going to take 10 minutes or 15 minutes. And then it takes much longer.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:57.12)
interesting.
Jessica Stern (34:11.394)
Whereas if someone doesn't want to wash the dishes, they might say, I don't want to do that, that's going to take such a long time, whatever. That's going to be like a half an hour endeavor, and then they go and do it and take seven minutes. So, yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:23.665)
You just blew my mind.
Dr. Jeanne (34:24.656)
Really? Yeah, I appreciate that so much because it feels like you're validating like my every morning routine. Like every day when I get into the office, I make a list of things to do. I write the amount of time I think it's going to take next to it. Then I go through it again and look at the ones I least want to do and I do them first. And it always takes a lot less time than I wrote down next to the things that I least wanted to do.
Jessica Stern (34:43.661)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (34:51.172)
My day just starts so much better because I already did everything I didn't want to do. It took much shorter time than I thought it would. And I know exactly how much time to allocate to each other. And then I like set my alarm and I stick to that and it really helps me. So I'm so happy that you just validated that. I thought it was just my perfectionist overdrive.
Jessica Stern (34:55.343)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (35:08.622)
That's amazing.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:08.765)
I know that's so cool. I wonder if it has to do with flow. You know what I mean? Like if we get into the state of flow, especially hyper -focused with ADHD. So flow states, you're going to underestimate how much time you're going to do something you enjoy, but you might be more likely to get into flow. So you don't have as good of a concept of how much time you're really doing it. Is that why that happens? Okay.
Dr. Jeanne (35:28.786)
Mm.
Jessica Stern (35:32.138)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, that's definitely part of why it happens. There's another complicating factor to this, which is the distraction piece. So another example that I commonly give people is one that was based on lots of experiences and stories I was hearing where someone would say, okay, I need to clean the bathroom. Now, if you do, if you clean the bathroom in a very linear fashion, it might not take that long. However, what oftentimes happens with ADHD is you do it in a zigzaggy way.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:41.152)
Mm -hmm. Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:52.263)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (36:01.24)
Right, so you start with cleaning the shower and then you like look over at the cabinet and you're like, wow, I forgot to declutter that. So you abandon the shower and then you start decluttering the cabinet, right? And then halfway through the cabinet, you're like, I have to place order for new medications. And then you go on Walmart, please start to place your order. You go back to the bathroom, but instead of continuing with the cabinet or the shower, you start to mop the floor, right? Et cetera, et cetera. And then
could have been like 20, 30 minutes winds up being an hour and a half. So this is where it kind of throws the loop sometimes because the lack of linear fashion in a step -by -step way can really abort the time that you expected a task to take to. So that's where it can be interesting for people to observe.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:33.489)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:40.785)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:44.359)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:51.421)
This is where I always get confused by my brain because I purposely zigzag for fun. I like will purposely do things all over the place, but I never forget. That's where I'm so confused. Like, is it attention deficit or is I just really like dopamine? Because I like purposely shift gears, but I get it all done eventually. And that's the big difference is I can't expect my husband to do that in the same way that I do that.
Jessica Stern (36:57.623)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (37:05.244)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (37:20.611)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:20.675)
And I think, you know, it kind of makes me think of just what you're saying as a whole. There are going to be things that are easier for certain brains, things that are easier for others. But learning with curiosity, I'd love that you said curiosity because that elicits compassion versus criticism. So I'd be curious if, you know, gosh, I feel like we could talk about this for three hours,
Jessica Stern (37:37.848)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm, absolutely.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:47.951)
If you were going to think about maybe some of the benefits, the strengths, the things that couples who either one partner has ADHD or both have ADHD, like what are some of the positives that you see in these couples? Because I would love for people listening to also be able to, you know, be inspired and have some hope for their relationship because it's certainly there as well.
Jessica Stern (38:13.034)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, there are, think, a variety of different strengths and it depends on the couple. It obviously depends on the specific person with ADHD and the version that they have and their personality traits. But something that we know is true about ADHD in general is that on the most, for the most part, on the whole, with ADHD tend to be more creative or can be a little bit more creative.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:38.492)
Hmm. Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (38:39.71)
and maybe have a little bit more of an imaginative mind, which while in some cases can be a little bit tricky for practical adulting, in some ways can be very inspiring. So I know some folks where one partner without ADHD is starting a new business and their partner with ADHD is able to generate lots of cool ideas and really help them with that idealistic mind, which in some ways can help them grow. In other ways,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:49.688)
Mm -hmm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:08.218)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (39:09.568)
It can be the hyper -focus. The hyper -focus gets a very bad rep because again, in sort of a logistical adulting capacity, it can be detrimental. Yeah, but sometimes it can be actually beneficial. if you as a couple want to plan a really fun vacation and your partner with ADHD is really excited about this and is gonna be able to dig in and hyper -focus on planning the trip, and it's not gonna be in a way where it's gonna attract from all of the household tasks that need to be done.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:22.599)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:37.371)
Yeah, right.
Jessica Stern (39:38.828)
you can sort of let their mind run wild and free in a way that actually might transpire something a little bit more enjoyable or fun for the couple. And so there are lots of ways in which this can be beneficial.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:54.579)
I was smiling so big when you said that because I've recognized that my husband's super good at rabbit holeing into the planning phase of a vacation. If I use my strength of knowing, hey, it's time to plan. It's like, I'm the one who says, it's coming up. We need to pick a camp resort kind of thing, because we were planning something for a couple of weeks from now. And I say, I'm not really in the mood to look
the different camp resorts, can you do that? And he's like, yes on it. And he rabbit holes and he finds every single one that there could possibly be within. And so I'm just, I feel so seen. That's so true. But not being resentful, if you as a non ADHD partner are just a lot better at certain things, it doesn't mean that your partner doesn't still care and want to contribute. It's just you're going to contribute differently.
Jessica Stern (40:24.994)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (40:35.82)
Yes!
Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:50.919)
is what I'm hearing you say.
Dr. Jeanne (40:51.122)
Mm
Jessica Stern (40:51.95)
Precisely. Exactly. And that's one of my big tips for couples is I do this early on actually in an evaluative stage when I'm talking to couples early on and trying to help them learn a little bit about how their cycle comes about is I'll ask each partner, what do you think some of your strengths are? And then I'll ask each partner, what do you think your partner's strengths are? Because that's where you can really come about this from a strengths -based place.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:12.104)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (41:20.998)
And sometimes it's very logistical strengths, like one partner's really good at doing the laundry and another partner's really good at doing grocery shopping and meal planning, et cetera. Sometimes it's a little bit more abstract than that or a little bit more emotional than that, where one partner is really good at providing feedback when the other partner is stressed. The other partner is really empathic and they can come together. learning.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:36.093)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:41.725)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Stern (41:47.742)
not just what your strength is, but what your partner's strength is and being able to articulate that is helpful, especially because partners are oftentimes when they're caught in these cycles, they're feeling frustrated. Maybe they're even feeling a little bit hopeless or helpless or confused and being able to ground in the space of like, hey, what do we do well can be really powerful.
Dr. Jeanne (42:09.666)
Mm. Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:10.301)
I love that. Well, Dr. Jessica, you have been so informative and compassionate as I had promised our listeners. And I mean, even after all this time and all the research and just really being in this ADHD world myself, I still feel like I walked away with some new ideas. And I'm so grateful for you for that. So thank you for coming on.
Dr. Jeanne (42:15.654)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (42:31.675)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:34.181)
Is there anywhere that you would like to direct our listeners if they want to maybe partake in some of your offerings or keep up with you on your show?
Jessica Stern (42:42.99)
Absolutely. Well, thank you both for having me on the show. It was such a pleasure being here talking about one of my favorite topics. If folks want to learn a little bit more about me, they can find me on my website, which is drjessicabeastern .com, or you can find me on Instagram and my handle is at drjessicabeastern. And I look forward to connecting with folks.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:05.585)
Thank you so much Dr. Jessica. Have a good one.
Dr. Jeanne (43:07.728)
Thank you. Bye. Thank you. That was amazing. Thank you so much for your time.
Jessica Stern (43:09.066)
Bye bye.