Dr. Amelia Kelley speaks about her new book "Powered by ADHD: Strategies and Exercises for Women to Harness Their Untapped Gifts."
Dr. Amelia Kelly discusses ADHD in women, its challenges, and common misconceptions. She talks to Dr. Jeanne about the higlights, strengths, and abilities that individuals with ADHD possess with a special focus on women with ADHD.
Takeaways:
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jeanne (00:17.665)
Today's a really cool one. We were talking about Dr. Kelly's new book, Powered by ADHD, Strategies and Exercises for Women to Harness Their Untapped Gifts. I can't wait to get into this conversation with you.
Dr. Kelley (00:31.726)
Me too.
jeanne (00:33.761)
Well, I'm actually just going to jump right in because when you said we should perhaps explore this topic, I was a little bit not nervous, but I wasn't really sure how to approach it because what I know of ADHD is when I was younger, I think about between nine and 12, we had this, I don't want to call it a scare, but this ADHD scare where...
Dr. Kelley (00:49.07)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (01:00.161)
people were starting to get nervous that, oh, everybody's kids have ADHD and they need to go on Redlin and you have to take this medication. And then nobody wanted their kids to go on medication and nobody believed a therapist anymore when they said ADHD. That's really what I know about it. So could you maybe just kind of bring us all onto a little playing field and just educate us on what is ADHD really?
Dr. Kelley (01:06.926)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (01:15.886)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (01:23.598)
Yes, and the fact that that's your history of it makes me super excited to talk about this today. And my hope is that by the time we are done talking about this, everyone listening has a completely different mindset about ADHD. So ADHD is a neurobiological disorder. I don't love using the term disorder. I like to say deviation. That is genetic and that is very common.
jeanne (01:30.593)
Hahaha!
Dr. Kelley (01:52.91)
in all human species and it's a form of neurodiversity. And so what it is is it's a different way that the brain interacts with the world around it when it comes to things like attending and it can impact things like executive functioning, especially if you're trying to take kids, for instance, and put them in these classrooms or these environments where they're supposed to dampen down their natural traits.
jeanne (02:04.449)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (02:21.153)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (02:22.862)
So when I say trait, I really do mean that because if you look at even just the genetics behind ADHD and how it does run in families, it ends up having these awesome, awesome abilities and skills in those with ADHD as well. So while it can really have a negative impact on life, it can impact all different areas of life if not managed or treated. with the right supports. I think the research and the approach on ADHD as of late, especially I'd say the last five to 10 years, has been starting to re -examine, is this really a disorder or is this just another form of neurodiversity that we're understanding more deeply? And that instead of just approaching with a medical model, like you were saying, of just throwing medication at it,
jeanne (03:19.393)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (03:21.582)
which does have its time and place and we should talk about, but instead looking at it as what special abilities are there with those with ADHD and how do we use a strength -based model to really build upon those skills and just find different ways for the ADHD brain to interact with the world.
jeanne (03:35.393)
Mm.
jeanne (03:45.121)
So you're saying it's very common, like how common? Do you know how many percentage of people have this? Is it more prevalent in children or in adults?
Dr. Kelley (03:56.974)
So the prevalence, if you look at diagnoses, really are only in the 3 % to 5 % range. But I guess what I'm saying is I beg to differ. I do believe that there is more of a spectrum when it comes to ADHD. Just as we're starting to learn that autism is not black or white, that it is rather, as it's been, you know, restated in the most recent DSM.
jeanne (04:03.489)
Okay.
Dr. Kelley (04:20.942)
that it is rather a spectrum of different types of qualities and traits of the brain. I suspect, this is not set in stone, but I suspect that as we learn more and more about ADHD and more and more individuals, especially women, which will unpack the differences for women, as more people understand the traits, I think we're gonna see there's plenty more people who may have it.
but just have different forms of it, mild forms, severe forms, hyperactive forms, the more inattentive perspective of it. So I think it's more than that, but the stats say about three to 5%. And...
jeanne (04:53.473)
Hmm.
jeanne (05:05.665)
So it's really a range if I'm hearing you correctly, like it's not just you have ADHD, like there is a different like level or spectrum of where you would fall.
Dr. Kelley (05:14.574)
Mm -hmm. You can have mild forms of ADHD. You can have more severe forms. And even different instances of life and environment can make certain symptom presentation more prevalent. But that's to say, you don't catch ADHD. You don't create ADHD. But if you look at epigenetics, there can be certain...
environmental factors that might make ADHD symptoms more present or more prevalent. I've learned honestly in this journey as I look at my own forms of neurodiversity that what I have done my entire life, I mean, aside from being on the brink of birth, I've exercised every day since the age of 15.
jeanne (06:05.473)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (06:06.126)
almost to a fault. I mean, I'm talking, you know, hotel rooms and anywhere. And I've realized as I've learned more about my neurodiversity that I think what I've been doing this whole time is managing my dopamine system. And dopamine deficiency and dopamine, the necessity for more dopamine is very common with ADHD and HSPs, the highly sensitives. And just,
jeanne (06:11.329)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Kelley (06:36.046)
not all neurodiversity, but certain forms of neurodiversity. So if you really look at, you know, look at it not as being black or white, but look at it as even menopause and paramenopause, when we have that drop in hormones can dramatically impact those who are diagnosed with ADHD. They can suddenly realize that their medication's not working as effectively anymore.
jeanne (06:52.449)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (07:00.206)
They may have symptom presentation that had abated after they grew out of their adolescence. They can suddenly say, oh my gosh, suddenly I'm high ADHD again. So it is, it should not be seen as a black or white yes or no checkbox in my opinion.
jeanne (07:17.953)
So, this might be a silly question, but what's the difference between ADHD and ADD?
Dr. Kelley (07:21.902)
So again, referencing the diagnostic manual, the DSM, it used to be that there was two distinct diagnoses, ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and ADD, attention deficit disorder, and then within that different subsets. The newest DSM has it all under the same umbrella, ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and then there's combined.
type, which means you may have some of the inattentive traits like distractibility, more propensity to losing things, having an issue starting tasks that have a high attention to detail as a necessity, or the hyperactive side, which is more restlessness, inability to sit still, interrupting, feeling on the go. In my opinion, however, as we continue to research this,
Some of the terms even within the diagnoses I think are completely inaccurate because not everyone is hyperactive. And in fact, there is not a deficit of attention. People with ADHD have heightened abilities for attention and hyperfocus.
jeanne (08:35.585)
Mm.
jeanne (08:42.017)
Yeah, I want that actually leads into my next question because in your book, you talk about hyper -focus and the gift of hyper -focus. And that kind of confused me because when I think, and obviously in my uneducated opinion about somebody with ADHD, I think not focused, like all over the place can't focus, can't sit still, super hyperactive and having like a real problem with focus. So I was very interested to...
Dr. Kelley (08:49.166)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (09:00.526)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (09:12.289)
learn not only that someone with ADHD can have hyperfocus, but that you had described it as the gift of hyperfocus. So would you elaborate on that?
Dr. Kelley (09:21.998)
Absolutely. Yes, this is one of my favorite powers of those with ADHD. Because if you think about some of the coolest discoveries we've had and the creative breakthroughs we've had, they are because of hyperfocus. So hyperfocus, and we kind of explored this a little bit with AC in the episode on the importance of play for reducing burnout.
jeanne (09:46.593)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (09:47.854)
Hyperfocus can put us into this state of flow where we are feeling more proficient, we're enjoying ourselves, we are really focused on something to the exclusion of all other things. So if you take someone with ADHD and they have a narrow frame, I'll say, of hyperfocus, meaning specific things that they really are excellent at excelling at, that they can really dive into,
jeanne (10:01.633)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (10:16.302)
It's not the same for everyone, but a lot of times with the ADHD brain, it's things that are hands -on, things that you can be creative with, things that you can kind of continue learning more and more about. However, I will say some of my self -proclaimed clients with ADHD, the women I work with are accountants, and that blows my mind. So their proficient...
jeanne (10:36.417)
Yeah.
jeanne (10:41.025)
Yeah, that doesn't seem to figure well does it?
Dr. Kelley (10:44.014)
But for them it does. There's something about their unique brain that really hyper focuses well on numbers. So where does this hyper focus come in? It's going to be in the areas where dopamine is more present. And that's why there's that old adage that those with ADHD only want to do what they're interested in. It's not because of being stubborn. It's not because they don't want to do things that to others seem difficult like...
jeanne (11:04.385)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (11:11.342)
I don't know, maybe sitting down for a long winded test. It's because there are certain things that deliver high levels of dopamine for that person and it makes that person more capable of hyper focusing on whatever that thing is. So I think back to like social studies in school. I wish I had paid more attention to it, but I think I spent half my time.
jeanne (11:14.945)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (11:27.137)
Mmm.
jeanne (11:32.961)
haha
Dr. Kelley (11:38.638)
writing notes to my friend Melissa in April. Hey guys. I got through okay in school, but it wasn't until I was in graduate school and I was focusing on psychology and the things that I super cared about that I really excelled. So I went from being average to 4 .0. Like that is such an extreme and that kind of shows.
jeanne (11:41.185)
Hehehehe
Dr. Kelley (12:04.622)
the power that dopamine has in this ability to hyperfocus. And so the thing of it is with the deficit portion is that if you don't create boundaries and barriers and guardrails around hyperfocus, it can get in the way of accomplishing things you need to do. It can lead to people being late because they got really entrenched in something. It can lead to a child maybe not.
doing the things they need to do in certain areas of school because they're hyper -focused on this one area. It can make someone really, really great in one hobby, but then they have a hard time maybe spreading their attention to other things. And you can see how this looks like you're being distracted from responsibilities, but really it's that inability to modulate that hyper -focus when it comes.
jeanne (12:50.817)
Mm.
jeanne (12:57.889)
Okay. That's really interesting because I said, I never knew that before. And as I'm speaking to you, I'm covering all of these incorrect ideas I had about ADHD and what the traits of people are that have ADHD. You also talk about ADHD trauma and how to deal with that. Can you tell us a bit more about it?
Dr. Kelley (13:03.566)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (13:12.59)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (13:19.662)
Mm -hmm.
Mm. Mm hmm.
Sure. And I think it's important. ADHD trauma doesn't necessarily mean because you have ADHD, you are more likely to experience trauma. I want to preface that. It's more so looking at the patterns, the narratives that can be implanted from growing up with ADHD. Research shows that, and I don't know how they collected this number. I want to talk to the researchers, but...
jeanne (13:38.721)
Yaya.
jeanne (13:53.537)
Ha ha.
Dr. Kelley (13:53.806)
that kids who have ADHD will receive up to 20 ,000 corrections and criticisms by the age of 12.
jeanne (14:03.169)
Oh, wow. So we're talking about the people whispering, the lady or the friend talking to your mom when you think you can't hear to have you had your child checked, you know, should you consider if he or she has ADHD? We're talking about these kinds of conversations. OK. Oh, wow.
Dr. Kelley (14:03.694)
Yes.
Dr. Kelley (14:17.838)
direct, direct, you know, redirections from teachers, from parents, from doctors, from society. I mean, it's pervasive. And so what can happen is things like rejection sensitivity, shame, masking, where you begin covering up symptoms in order to seem higher functioning, which can then lead to things like anxiety.
panic, depression, low self -esteem. And so the trauma piece is when we look at ADHD as something that needs to be fixed because it's wrong or because it's a deficit, it can create these internalized traumas that impact your view of yourself in the world.
jeanne (14:49.409)
Hmm.
jeanne (15:11.041)
And you were saying earlier that you have some opinions about ADHD and medication and perhaps as Ivan understood it, it's not always necessary for you to be on medication because you have ADHD. Do you have to be on a certain type of medication and how and when would your therapist or your psychiatrist or who looks after you decide that you need it?
Dr. Kelley (15:20.238)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (15:30.318)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (15:39.63)
Right, this is complex and I'm happy to explore my perspective on it. So there's so much research about whether or not it's helpful or hurtful to put younger children on medication. And I think I look at the cost benefit. So is the benefit of them being medicated and helping them integrate into a social setting.
jeanne (15:56.193)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (16:07.214)
helping to reduce the chance of ADHD trauma like shame and rejection sensitivity and increasing their ability to socialize and perform well in school and have those experiences of mutual empathy for peers and just these beautiful things that kids learn. Is the presence of medication going to increase their chance of those things happening? Then it might be much more appropriate to medicate.
jeanne (16:38.209)
Okay.
Dr. Kelley (16:38.798)
If instead, and as I was saying, there's mild to more severe forms. You know, I look at, I'm married to someone with ADHD and his form of ADHD is more severe. He also had a tragic accident where he was hit by a drunk driver and suffered a TBI. And so now he has the ADHD piece that is aggravated by the TBI from the accident. And so,
jeanne (16:56.513)
Oh no.
Dr. Kelley (17:06.382)
for him and honestly for the health of our marriage, it is very crucial that he be medicated so that he can do things like parent, young children, work, be a spouse. So I think sometimes I look at the external factors when I'm thinking of maybe an adult. Do you have the time and the capability to carve out all the holistic things that will help? Supplements, exercise, meditation, sleep hygiene.
jeanne (17:12.705)
Hmm.
Mm. Mm.
Dr. Kelley (17:33.294)
diet, these things that make an impact on your stress response and the ability to capture the dopamine you can. If you've got all these things in place and you can create, as Dr. Barkley speaks so eloquently about kind of these ramps of support, guardrails, using schedulers, using different things, maybe getting a coach. If you can do all these things and kind of build your life to be pro ADHD and work with your brain,
jeanne (17:51.105)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (18:03.278)
medication might not be necessary, but how many of us can do all that? That's a lot. That's a yes, tall order. And so I think there's really, it's such an individualized decision, but there's a lot of positive data about what these stimulants can do because with the ADHD brain, you've got,
jeanne (18:05.632)
Mm.
jeanne (18:09.729)
Yeah, okay, that's a tall order.
Dr. Kelley (18:32.046)
everything firing at once. It's actually not that there's a part of the brain not firing. It's that there's not this beautiful symphony of back and forth with attention. In someone who doesn't have ADHD, the attention centers of the brain can take turns when they're supposed to in order to remain engaged. Whereas ADHD brain is like everyone's at band practice trying to play together all at the same time. So what stimulants do ironically, and this is what's
jeanne (18:58.593)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (19:02.19)
very confusing about medicating ADHD. Stimulants don't excite the whole brain. It actually helps the symphony work well together. And Dr. Andrew Huberman talks about this so nicely on his podcast.
jeanne (19:10.977)
Yeah.
jeanne (19:19.041)
That's amazing. I always thought that the stimulants kind of down, down it more. And you were saying ADHD is more of an up and I thought the stimulants would be more of a down so that, but you were saying it actually just helps everything work together nicely.
Dr. Kelley (19:36.27)
Well, yes, and I mean, you are correct in what we see. So someone who takes the medication will be able to down regulate a little bit more effectively, be able to dispense their gift of focus a little bit more broadly. Although I do have clients who they say sometimes they have to be very specific about what they're working on when they first take their stimulants in the morning.
jeanne (19:54.433)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (20:05.07)
because whatever they're working on, they're going to get really focused on. So like I have a client who works for Google at home, which creates a lot of possibility for, you know, getting distracted by different things in the home space. So she's, she says she'll take it with just enough time to start a task. And then as the medication starts to be effective, she's already in it. She's already in the task. And that's a nice thing about these medications is they're not,
jeanne (20:09.921)
Okay.
jeanne (20:15.777)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (20:35.374)
you can be mindful about maybe not taking them on the weekend, for instance, if you don't necessarily need them as much, which can also make them more effective during the week when you do take them. So there's a whole gambit that comes into play when looking at how these medications work and what makes them more or less effective.
jeanne (20:44.001)
Mm.
jeanne (20:58.977)
Okay. So you also talk in your book a little about parenting and it's really great because it's a workbook and it has so many exercises and tools to use. I mean, I would just, when we were younger, we thought my sister had ADHD and it just wasn't the same conversation as it is now. We didn't have the same tools. We didn't have the same openness about it. And if I just think back to how difficult it was for my parents,
Dr. Kelley (21:03.118)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (21:15.342)
Mm hmm.
Dr. Kelley (21:21.582)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (21:27.758)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (21:28.449)
kind of wrap their heads around this and understand, okay, where do we go from here? Can you maybe highlight some one or two key things about parenting a child with ADHD for those of us who are in the thick of it and we're kind of exacerbated, we don't know what to do. What are like the two core things that you need to set yourself up to be a good parent to your child in that scenario?
Dr. Kelley (21:56.302)
So I think the first thing is understanding the genetic component because most often adults find out that they have ADHD because their child is diagnosed first.
jeanne (22:10.817)
Oh, that's interesting. Okay.
Dr. Kelley (22:13.422)
Yes, and if we look at the issues with underdiagnosis in women, most women don't find out and I never like dichotomous words. Many women do not find out until their 30s and 40s that they have ADHD. So I think...
jeanne (22:26.433)
Hahaha.
Dr. Kelley (22:35.182)
The thing is looking at the whole family system and not just looking at the individual child and their diagnoses is so crucial because if you can look at your own patterns, your own potential diagnosis or and or not diagnosis, but you know what environmental traits, what do you need in order to feel the most centered and calm and peaceful in the home environment?
So I think looking at as like a group project or a family systems project is really helpful. But the other thing is I was mentioning the ramp that Dr. Barkley had referenced. This is literally my favorite thing I've ever heard about ADHD and how we can help our kids. If you expect someone who is in a wheelchair to use a ramp enough times that suddenly they're no longer going to need the ramp, that's not realistic.
jeanne (23:29.281)
No.
Dr. Kelley (23:29.774)
Correct? The ramp is not meant to behaviorally change the ability for someone to walk. The ramp is there as a prop to support the person's ability to move around. The same thing goes with helping our kids. So if you have a child who you suspect has ADHD, maybe they've been tested, maybe you're curious and you're thinking you want to have, you know, the doctor take a look into this or maybe start at the level of school.
jeanne (23:36.129)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (23:43.297)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (24:00.302)
If you stop looking at things like sticker charts and behavior modification as a way to change ADHD, and you instead look at it as a way to prop up, support, create a better environment, create the ramps that make it likely that your children can be successful, not only are your kids going to get better services and better options because you're thinking creatively and outside the box,
but it can really reduce parental burnout because when we're not expecting, like I said, my husband, I don't expect him to remember anything I tell him unless he puts it on his calendar. And that was a work in progress, it's taken us time. But when I let go of the idea that he should remember what I said to him, and I will ask if he forgot, hey, did you use your calendar?
jeanne (24:40.065)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (24:56.75)
I'm looking at it as a prop, as a guardrail, as something that helps his brain excel. If we can grant kids this same opportunity and stop looking at modifying and changing the brain necessarily, but really supporting their unique brain in a strength -based mentality, I think it will reduce parental burnout. It'll help kids feel less shame around the diagnosis.
jeanne (25:03.489)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (25:20.193)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (25:24.654)
It might even help them celebrate their diagnosis.
jeanne (25:27.457)
Oh, wow. That's wonderful advice. That's wonderful parenting advice, not just... So in terms of the workbooks and the exercises that you supply, which would you say are your two or three favorites that you are most excited about sharing?
Dr. Kelley (25:33.166)
I know you can apply to all different things, not just ADHD.
Dr. Kelley (25:47.95)
Mmm.
So I really like the unmasking exercise. I had guided readers not just in identifying, so to clarify masking as I was saying is that behavior that we do where we're trying to cover up symptom presentation of any form of neurodiversity or diversity in general. So for instance, if someone with ADHD struggles with being on time, maybe they try to be 30 minutes early somewhere.
jeanne (26:02.369)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (26:20.193)
Okay.
Dr. Kelley (26:20.494)
So to the lay brain, you might think, well, they're always early, but they might actually be engaging in masking. So certain forms of masking are helpful and help us succeed. And I think we all mask to a degree. I would love to do a whole episode on masking. But too much of it, as I've mentioned, can cause some of those ADHD shame spirals and trauma and rejection sensitivity, increase anxiety. Imagine if you're hard on yourself anytime you're late for any...
jeanne (26:33.793)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (26:50.094)
myriad of reasons. So I go into helping the reader understand what are the masking behaviors that are helping you, what are ones that are hurting, and maybe not making it as easy for you to connect with other people, because if you're engaging in too much masking, it can make it more difficult to have authentic connection. And then I walk the reader through a really neat meditation on unmasking.
jeanne (26:51.808)
Mm -hmm.
jeanne (27:12.449)
Okay.
Dr. Kelley (27:18.574)
which will be shared on my website shortly. So even if you don't have the book, you can go and do the unmasking meditation yourself. So I tried to give like practical things, like there's a whole chapter on finances, which you remember I was saying the dopamine thing, you guys, my dopamine was real low when I was writing that chapter. I am not a finance person. And so I had to look to other people, other inspiring people.
jeanne (27:22.465)
Hahaha!
jeanne (27:34.433)
Yeah.
jeanne (27:38.337)
haha
Dr. Kelley (27:48.078)
and see what is out there about finances. So, you know, I go into everything from dealing with things like finances and practical ways you can increase your financial health to celebrating the different gifts that ADHD have and how does it affect your relationships. And it's kind of all the different areas, I hope, that might be impacted.
jeanne (28:02.465)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (28:15.278)
for women, but also any honestly, anyone with ADHD. It doesn't have to just be a woman.
jeanne (28:22.177)
That's so cool. And that's your book that I see there above you is not powered by ADHD. When will it be available?
Dr. Kelley (28:25.71)
Yes.
Dr. Kelley (28:30.862)
So it's coming out May 28th. You can pre -order it right now, really wherever books are sold. And I'm going to shamelessly plug that reviews are awesome when you do get it. And the neat thing, little factoid, as long as you have Amazon, you can do reviews even if you don't get it there. And the reason is that it makes it more accessible to more people. That's why it's really so important to do that is just because it gets it into more people's hands so that more people can be helped.
jeanne (28:42.785)
Ha ha ha.
jeanne (29:00.385)
Yeah. And anything else you would like our audience to know about this project or specific place you'd like to send them?
Dr. Kelley (29:07.662)
Well, as always, you know, I'm on Instagram all the time. That's where I'm most active. I try to share as much as I can. And we're going to be actually doing a little kind of voyage on different podcasts, talking to different folks, different thought, different thought leaders in this field. So I'm excited for that. That's just launching. Yeah. So I'll have to share all that. But.
jeanne (29:28.865)
Oh, that's amazing!
Dr. Kelley (29:32.622)
Like I said on Amelia Kelly calm I'm gonna be sharing the meditations some of the different workbook activities But I believe at some point we're also thinking of recording this one because some of my ADHD Brains that I've worked with said I don't want to sit down and read a whole book But it is yes, I love I love it but it is done in bite sizes So if you want to sit down and just do one activity
jeanne (29:53.121)
Correct. Audible is the way to go.
Dr. Kelley (30:01.55)
That's huge. You don't have to sit down and read the whole book in one sitting.
jeanne (30:05.921)
That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. I'm really excited for it to come out. I'm excited for our audience to read it and get their hands on it. Thank you so much for giving us more information about it.
Dr. Kelley (30:17.966)
You're welcome. Thanks for having me on our podcast. Bye everyone. Bye.
jeanne (30:20.929)
So we'll, yeah, we'll see you again next time. Bye. Okay. Thank you.