Andrea Ashley, host of the popular podcast The Adult Child, shares her personal story as an adult child of an alcoholic and dysfunctional family. She discusses the common characteristics of adult children, and highlights the importance of recognizing childhood trauma and its impact on adult relationships.
Andrea Ashley, host of the popular podcast The Adult Child, shares her personal story as an adult child of an alcoholic and dysfunctional family. She discusses the common characteristics of adult children, and highlights the importance of recognizing childhood trauma and its impact on adult relationships.
Key Takeaways
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Dr. Amelia Kelley (01:37.591)
Okay, sounds good. Super excited to have you here today, Andrea. Yes, I had the pleasure of being on your podcast, Adult Child Pod. And I had a lot of fun. You have a very different style than a lot of other podcasts I've been on. And I love that you led with a laugh because I think that's a perfect example. Just, I don't know, there was something so authentic and laid back and honest about
Andrea (01:42.425)
Ew.
Andrea (01:46.844)
circuit.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:07.285)
and not just how you interview. I have never felt like someone was more interested in me in my life than when you interviewed. Yes.
Andrea (02:13.096)
Really? that makes me feel so good.
Dr. Jeanne (02:15.225)
That's so cool!
Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:17.789)
Yeah, it was awesome. And I mean, part of me being so honest was also that you're so honest. So yeah, so I was wondering if you could, you know, share that with our listeners a little bit about your personal story, maybe what led you to creating this beautiful space for people where they can just be their, you know, broken and unbroken selves.
Andrea (02:23.762)
Yeah, I sure am.
Dr. Jeanne (02:25.763)
Hahaha
Andrea (02:43.474)
Yeah, it's really interesting. I don't know if I shared this with you. Just thinking about this, what do I call it? Like an unabashed like vulnerability and authenticity and where does that come from? And it's interesting, cause I had a, her name is Susan Anderson. She's like the, she's the woman that termed the abandonment trauma.
She's kind of like the abandonment trauma guru, but I had her on my podcast and we were talking about how, I don't know if I shared this with you, Amelia, but when I was in the seventh grade, I became like the school slut overnight and the girl that Noam was allowed to be friends with. And I kind of almost like leaned into it in a way. I don't know how to explain it. Like that was the way that I put up my armor was almost like, I don't care about this harassment.
But so I will start with the moment that I realized that I was an adult child. we define this term?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:38.487)
Please do, because I think it means different things to different people.
Andrea (04:43.804)
Absolutely. So it's not like a man child, although it kind of is. So the term is adult children of alcoholic and dysfunctional families. It was initially adult children of alcoholics. So this term came around in the late seventies and it's an interesting story. So it was a group of young adults who had been in allotine, for those of,
we should probably say, Al -Anon is the sister program for Alcoholics Anonymous and Alatine is for teenagers that grow up in an alcoholic home. And so they graduated like from Alatine into Al -Anon. And what they realized was that they couldn't really relate to what was being discussed in the meetings because it was mostly about talking about their spouse or maybe their kids. And they were trying to deal with the aftermath of having
grown up in an alcoholic home. And so they created their own group. And then from that came the laundry list. So what they realized was regardless of the specifics of what it looked like in their home, there were these certain characteristics that they all had in common. And so that became the laundry list, which is the 14 common characteristics of an adult child. And we can get into that later. But then it was less than 10 years later,
that both the, and when this group was formed, it was around the same time that both the medical and mental health community was realizing that alcoholism was a family disease. And not just that, that it also had impacted you even after you left the home. But so then it was less than 10 years after the term adult children of alcoholics was coined, that they realized that there were other types of dysfunctional family systems that could also produce
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:23.765)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (06:41.244)
an adult child. So whether that is any form of abuse or neglect, growing up in a narcissistic home, having an authoritarian parent, super controlling, perfectionistic, religious abuse, you name it, any sort of dysfunctional family system could produce an adult child. So the term, I'll give two definitions. So one is an adult child is someone who responds
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:57.814)
Hmm.
Andrea (07:10.214)
adult situations with self -doubt, self -blame, or a sense of being wrong or inferior all as a result of their childhood experiences. I think another way to define it would be an adult child is someone whose unresolved childhood pain surfaces and plays out in adulthood and not in a good way. I would view it as it being a form of PTSD.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:20.32)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:33.537)
Gotcha.
Andrea (07:40.91)
So yeah, I'll pause there in case there's any comments or questions or anything.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:40.971)
I mean, it makes sense.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:45.527)
No, I was loving how you were describing that. mean, I think it's really interesting to see how a term can start in like the lived experience. Like you're saying these teens who grew with their insights into, as you were saying, Al -Anon and how I'm seeing that play out as a clinician, you know, how I see that in my clients as you were describing the adult child.
my entire caseload flashed by my eyes. Well, because a lot of people I work with adults and I work with primarily adults who have experienced childhood trauma and they come in really well resourced in certain ways, really highly achieving, really externally appearing like they have it all together. But internally, there's this kind of like failure schema warfare going on.
Dr. Jeanne (08:16.778)
Hahaha
Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:41.335)
in their relationships and their job, I mean, in almost all facets of their life. So I love how you like laid that out.
Andrea (08:51.004)
Yeah, and I would say just, and I'll get into my story, but just some common characteristics would be, mean, fear of abandonment is huge, although it could go the other way. could be like fear of enmeshment, an overdeveloped sense of responsibility, approval seeking, people pleasing, fear of authority figures. What else? Either like becoming, yeah, there's, well, there's plenty more.
Dr. Jeanne (09:13.315)
That's a lot.
Andrea (09:19.156)
You know, inability to say no, you know, staying in relationships long past their due, becoming an alcoholic or some other form of substance abuse or being attracted to somebody with some sort of an addiction or compulsive personality, both. Yeah, so I got sober at 19 and we can get into my story, my childhood if you want later, but
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:26.112)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (09:34.925)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Andrea (09:46.75)
You know, most people when they enter sobriety, they don't have a great romantic picker. I mean, typically you're not coming in with like high self -esteem and like a long history of healthy relationships, right? Not to mention I was so young, I was so young. So all of my friends had like broken pickers too that I got sober with. But what happened was I watched their pickers slowly improve and my picker was not,
Dr. Jeanne (10:01.965)
Yeah.
Andrea (10:16.46)
And it wasn't even necessarily that my picker wasn't improving, but it was more so that my reaction in each relationship was more painful and nutty than the time before. I felt crazier, I acted crazier. I would get hijacked immediately as I got into a
And I was somebody that took long breaks, like in between relationships. Like I would take a year, a year and a half off. I'd feel good about myself. I'd be sure that I wasn't going to ignore red flags, that I was going to do things differently. And it was like time after time after time, I kept finding myself in the same situation and I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on with me. Like I couldn't figure it
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:05.053)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (11:09.3)
And I even started going to therapy. I guess I was four years sober. Now, granted, I grew up in an alcoholic home. I knew that, you know, but I became kind of the problem child at 12. I just, I really, I just had no idea that what I was experiencing in each relationship was a trauma response. Like I had no idea that that's what was going on. So I, at five years sober, moved out to San Francisco. And so then I was seven years sober.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:13.708)
Mm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:29.846)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (11:38.996)
And was dating Brian number one, we dated for less than a month when he ghosted me. And then my reaction was as if my husband of 30 years had like tragically died in a plane crash. And I just became inconsolable. I couldn't go to work. My mom had to fly out to California to kind of almost take care of me. And it was in the midst of that, that I had two really powerful ahas. The first was
Dr. Jeanne (11:43.86)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:45.163)
Mm -hmm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:51.242)
Hmm.
Andrea (12:06.9)
There's no way the way that I'm feeling right now could actually be about this person. And then the second how was there's no, this is a feeling that I felt often as a child. And I realized that this was the same exact feeling that I would feel when I'd wake up in the middle of the night and felt like I was gonna die if I couldn't sleep in my mom's bed. And that was the first time that I really connected the feelings. it was a couple of weeks, a couple of months later, I'm at a 12 step meeting and a woman
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:11.927)
That's insightful.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:17.804)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:25.142)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (12:36.692)
over 30 years of sobriety is sharing about how when she had seven years that she had as a result of a relationship hit this subsequent second bottom and came to terms with the true impact that her childhood had had on her. And she mentioned this book, Adult Children of Alcoholic and Dysfunctional Families. So I go home, I read the book, my mind's blown. It was like the first time that I was seeing on paper, like all the things that I had felt and thought and did, and it felt so relieving.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:57.883)
Hmm.
Andrea (13:07.188)
I went back the next week and I went up to her after the meeting and I said, thanks so much for what you shared and told her a little bit about what was going on with me. And she was like, that's great, Andrea, but I just want you to know that, you know, just reading this book isn't going to be enough. She goes, this is going to take you years and years and years and years to work through lots of therapy. You have to treat this as seriously as your alcoholism. And I was, I guess I was 27 or 28.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:26.965)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (13:36.796)
And I was just like, I don't have years, lady. I do not have years. I have a couple months at most, if not yesterday. And I was just like, wow, I really just hope that her childhood was way more screwed up than mine. And I was like, I'll take a year off. I've read this book. Surely that'll be good enough. fast forward to...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:40.497)
Yeah
Dr. Jeanne (13:40.631)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:52.938)
I'm
Andrea (14:03.188)
September 2017, nine years sober at this point, bride number two, another alcoholic, the most painful, insane six months of my entire life. My life was impacted in all the same ways that it was when I was drinking and using drugs. And it was through that experience that I realized that what I was dealing with was not only as powerful as my alcoholism, but perhaps even more so.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:32.832)
Hmm.
Andrea (14:32.852)
And that, you I always knew that alcohol was a symptom, but it was through that experience that I then realized that my alcoholism was a symptom of the underlying childhood trauma. So when that relationship ended in January, 2018, I knew that my life depended upon working through that. And so that's exactly what I did.
But part of also hitting that bottom was the realization that I had never really considered what a fulfilling career would look like. I was a CPA at the time, which is like my personality for that.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:07.135)
Hmm. Very different.
Dr. Jeanne (15:07.821)
Wow. So how old were you when you became sober?
Andrea (15:13.812)
I was 19. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (15:15.257)
19. Okay. So that's very young. That's early. So many times when we look at addiction, we see a lot of people still struggling much later in life, trying to stay sober, trying to get on a good path, trying to figure out their traumas. Do you feel like it's been a blessing for you that you were able to become sober at such a young age and work through all of these steps? Okay.
Andrea (15:40.476)
I'll be dead.
Yeah, I mean, I got sent to rehab for the first time at 14. yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was drinking every day starting at 16. But I'm really grateful for that because part of what I experienced and we can talk about this too is that I became like the identified patient of my family and like the scapegoat. And so my parents as a way to avoid having to look at their own issues focused on mine.
Dr. Jeanne (15:47.031)
Wow, okay, yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:47.415)
Hmm, so your career started early.
Dr. Jeanne (15:55.117)
Yeah.
Andrea (16:12.84)
and so rehabs, boarding schools, outpatients. And I think that that allowed for my disease to progress faster in a way. Because it was like I had to go almost to like even greater lengths to do what I needed to do. So I'm so grateful for
Dr. Jeanne (16:23.631)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:33.569)
Yeah. I mean that
Dr. Jeanne (16:33.888)
And was it mom or dad who had the substance issue? Mom. Okay, okay.
Andrea (16:36.914)
Mom, well, they're both now, but mom, growing up.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:42.263)
I mean, that makes a lot of sense if you think about the bottom, which you've talked about your adult child bottom. Is that how you refer to it? And I remember when I was talking with you on your podcast and you said that, and I said, woo, I have not heard it referred to that way before. When you think about being at the bottom, like if someone that is listening feels that they are at the bottom right now, their adult child bottom, and I'm thinking of
specific client of mine that I hope listens to this episode who is in a very similar relationship cycle as you just described and I've noticed this client continues to take time off and as you were saying that it made me think about how we work through complex trauma and how the scariest part of working through complex trauma is that the best way to do it is actually in relationship.
not out of
Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:43.583)
And I'm curious when you think back to the breaks and taking the breaks and what it meant for you to really fully lean in and say, okay, instead of continuing to, I don't want to say run, but it kind of reminds me of that avoidant attachment style of, okay, this is really harmful and scary and painful. So I'm just going to peace out for a bit. Like I don't feel that energy from you now. I feel a very present energy. So what did it take to get
Well, the way I'm going to solve this is by piecing out versus I'm going to stay right here.
Andrea (18:20.564)
I didn't know what I didn't know.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:22.414)
Yeah.
Andrea (18:23.764)
You know, like it really, I never considered my childhood as trauma. And you know, because I mean, this was, I mean, I really feel like it's been within the last however many years, I don't know, 10 years or so that we're really talking about this. Like I knew that it was less than ideal, but it wasn't until I was really able to see
that what I was experiencing were the symptoms of complex PTSD that allowed me to actually accept that this was trauma that I experienced. I apologize, there's lawnmowers out there. So I think it was really fully, like,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:58.369)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (19:14.996)
It was just really being able to, it was almost like an out of body experience in a way, especially like being in that last relationship and just seeing that these are the symptoms, experiencing emotional flashbacks, finally being able to realize like, wow, what I'm experiencing right now, this emotional flashback, like I know that what I'm experiencing is irrational.
I know that I shouldn't be feeling like I shouldn't be in a relationship with this person. I don't even like them that much, but I literally feel like I'm going to die. And it doesn't even matter if consciously I know that it's it. I still feel that way, you know? So just to, it was just really being able to see the, the true magnitude of what, of what I was experiencing on top of
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:56.853)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:04.204)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (20:10.17)
seeing the ways that it was impacting my entire life as well. It was just, what was it? It was, we get sick and tired of being sick and tired, right? It's how do we get there? It's when the pain is too much, you know? And it's just like, I don't even know if there's really anything I can say to this client, right? You know, it's like, there's really, I mean, we can plant seeds and have aha moments, but it's really
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:15.806)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:20.768)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:30.827)
Yeah.
Andrea (20:37.852)
I think it's a combination of information, know, like a combination of knowing what's going on coupled with a shitload of pain.
Dr. Jeanne (20:50.585)
Yeah, well said.
Andrea (20:52.476)
And it can't be one or the other, right? Because like I was in a ton of pain, but I didn't really understand what was going on with me, you know, versus like you could have an understanding of what's going on with you. But if the pain's not enough, you're not going to do anything about
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:58.93)
Good point.
Dr. Jeanne (20:59.235)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:05.597)
Mm -hmm. It kind of reminds me of we've...
Dr. Jeanne (21:06.908)
I resonate so much with what you're saying. No, it's okay. I saw that you were glitching out. No, no, I resonate so much with what you're saying because this is very similar to how I experienced it too. It wasn't until I think my late twenties, maybe even when I was, when I turned 30, where I started thinking, well,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:11.617)
Sorry, I think we had a glitch, so I didn't know you were going to talk. So we'll just edit that out. Go for it.
Dr. Jeanne (21:35.903)
maybe, just maybe, I'm not the weird one. You know, maybe I'm not misinterpreting things, maybe I'm not misimagining things, you know, and what led me to that is, like we all do when we socialize, we talk about our lives, we talk about our parents and growing up and I started noticing that people had these really weird reactions to super normal things for me, I was saying and I was like, how could
Andrea (22:03.476)
Like what? Let's hear something.
Dr. Jeanne (22:04.041)
why are they so upset? This is so normal. Like everybody's life is like, everybody's family is like this. Everybody goes through this. And that's only when kind of the wheels started moving for me in thinking of, maybe there's a little bit more here than I recognize or realize. So I really resonate and it's so important to get to that point. But it's hard to get there if you have absolutely no other example.
of what is normal and healthy, you
Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:39.873)
What kind of makes me think about why someone who has endured trauma is a little bit more, unfortunately, likely to be re -traumatized and to continue getting into these scenarios because, Andrea, you called it a picker. And I dare I say the picker might be somewhat coupled with the nervous system. You know, like whether or not your nervous system signals danger to you.
at particular times, whether or not your nervous system, and by danger, I don't mean, you know, someone's going to offer you heroin or someone's going to assault you. Yes, even that can be danger, you know, like something if you are lucky enough to be raised in a supportive, good enough, like truly good enough family where your needs are
Dr. Jeanne (23:16.109)
Haha.
Andrea (23:17.704)
You mean emotionally
Dr. Jeanne (23:19.779)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:34.271)
your nervous system becomes more acclimated to a feeling of peace and safety and getting those needs met. So when you get into relationship and your needs aren't met, it feels bad. It feels weird and different to your nervous system. So there's a signal, a message. Your picker gets the little, you know, red light goes off. Whereas if your nervous system is acclimated to trying to like...
coordinate around your caregivers moods or substance use or whether or not they even love you or want you around because unfortunately some of them don't know how to express that. You have to to survive as a child acclimate to that and learn to cope with it. And so your picker, which I dare I say is dictated by your nervous system, doesn't go
doesn't let you know, the red light doesn't go
Andrea (24:32.166)
Yeah, it's so weird. Like, you know what mean? Like, it's so just like, it's so bizarre, you know? Like, just, and it's not only that the red light doesn't go off, it's also like, I'm not attracted to somebody that's healthy, you know? And it's also, but it's also like, how does this, here's, it really does make me have faith in, like, in a higher power because it's
Dr. Jeanne (24:35.831)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:47.767)
Good point.
Andrea (25:02.1)
I'm on dating apps, And it's not like I'm picking somebody that's chugging beers in their phone. You know I mean? And I'm very picky. I'm very picky. And how is it without fail? There's no way that I could know that this person could potentially have a drinking problem. There's no way. And how is it that time after time after time, this is who I end up sitting? It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And I think
Dr. Jeanne (25:10.531)
Hahaha
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:14.859)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:22.869)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (25:31.878)
It's an interesting point though, because we can look at it as this broken picker, but then on the other side of it is like, no, it's like, we're also just given these opportunities to heal, right? It's not only just that we keep finding ourselves, it's like you said, right? Like we heal it in relationships. So instead of me like, well, here I am again. It's like, yeah, well, here I am again.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:46.101)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (26:00.99)
Like I have an opportunity once again to potentially deal with this, but it does really seem like to me that there is some weird magnetic, energetic shit going on that just like draws us to these people. It's nuts.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:03.605)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (26:19.287)
It's like we find them automatically, like we have this beacon going
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:20.191)
Yeah. You said, you were saying boredom. I think that's such an important word to bring up. And it reminds me of our conversation we had on attachment with Jessica Baum, how the aversion to boredom, the aversion to chaos, not, well, no, the attraction to chaos, I guess, the aversion to peace, the aversion to things being okay.
Andrea (26:21.223)
Yes!
Yeah!
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:49.851)
And I think actually on one of your episodes, one of your brilliant guests, and you'll have to remind me who it was, said something along the lines of, people with complex trauma, being in a space of safety feels dangerous. Yes, yes. And I loved that so much, I shared it. It's so true though. And I'm curious, in your opinion, how do you think growing up
Andrea (27:04.501)
Tim Fletcher. Yeah, he's the shit. I love him. Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (27:10.659)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:19.409)
growing up into an adult child of an alcoholic is connected to this aversion to boredom and this feeling that boredom is no good and it's dangerous and it's a sign that this is not the relationship for me. Like why is that unattractive for things to be settled and peaceful? Just in your opinion, not necessarily from my like nerdy neuroscience perspective.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:47.787)
Like, what does it feel like?
Andrea (27:49.864)
Mmm.
Yeah, it's interesting. I'm just thinking about it from my perspective. It's... Because I don't even necessarily think in my experiences it's
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:59.051)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (28:07.934)
When I think about boredom, it's more like it.
Andrea (28:13.864)
If people have a certain kind of personality that's like a little bit lame, I don't know how to explain it, but what I liken it to is intensity. in growing up in a dysfunctional family, and I will say this, my parents, I think they actually like really do like love each other. Like they're dysfunctional as hell,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:41.823)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (28:42.492)
There definitely is like a genuine like and love between the two of them. But I think that in a lot of homes that the only time that you are seeing
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:45.537)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (28:45.891)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (28:56.892)
It's either avoidance or numbness or like intensity and chaos. And so you equate, you know, being in love with there being intensity and chaos. I think when I think about it from my perspective, it really has to do with the fear of abandonment.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:23.627)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (29:23.666)
So I don't know how much so it's about their boredom or chaos. For me, it's once that abandonment wound gets triggered, that's when I really, I get sucked, I get sucked in, right? So as soon as that gets triggered, I'm in it to win it, baby.
Dr. Jeanne (29:39.372)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:39.867)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:43.243)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (29:46.234)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:47.731)
It's interesting because I think of a different client of mine who had mentioned that she can meet someone, he seems like great guy, but as soon as he seems too interested in her, she's no longer interested in him.
Dr. Jeanne (29:50.073)
you
Dr. Jeanne (30:00.483)
Wow, that is interesting guys.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:04.599)
And I'm so I'm curious when you think about, you know, shifting gears a little bit, we're talking a lot about, you know, romantic relationships, but are there any other ways that you have seen for you personally, or you have seen in your community that you've created where being an adult child of an alcoholic can negatively impact you had mentioned things around like shame and feeling like.
Andrea (30:05.958)
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:31.531)
feeling like you're always going to mess up or fear of abandonment. But I've also seen the other side of the coin too, where there's these anxious overachievers and perfectionists. And I was wondering if you could speak on that a little
Andrea (30:40.196)
yeah, absolutely.
Andrea (30:44.594)
Yeah, and you know, I really wish I had gotten that part.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:47.655)
Yeah, I don't know. You're killing it with your community. So I think you got a little of it.
Andrea (30:49.364)
Really?
Kind of, not really. mean, I know, but I would really be killing it if I hadn't. But yeah, I really wish that... You know, what was so interesting actually was another thing that Tim Fletcher said was that based off the roles, so we have like scapegoat, lost child, hero, mascot, the scapegoat, which is what I was, they will come to terms with...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:55.969)
Thank
Andrea (31:21.244)
their childhood trauma stuff much earlier on versus those other roles. It's almost more so like a, almost like more like a midlife crisis that they finally come to terms with that, which I thought was fascinating.
Dr. Jeanne (31:25.399)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (31:34.915)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:38.167)
So what were those again and what are they?
Andrea (31:39.998)
So we have the scapegoat, know, which is like the, you know, we know what that is, the symptom bearer. So that's when we're really like leaning into the shame and creating the chaos and creating more shame. But so then for like the other roles are the hero child, the lost child and the mascot. And those wounds stay hidden a lot longer than the scapegoats would.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:46.241)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:05.493)
Right. So hero child, would that be like the quintessential golden child? Okay. What is the mascot? I have not heard that before. okay. Dr. Jane, did you, is that you?
Andrea (32:08.05)
The golden child, yeah,
The one that uses humor to lighten the mood.
Dr. Jeanne (32:19.149)
I was the one, I was the mediator. I was the one always made sure the mood is lightened, avoiding the walking on eggshells, trying to make everybody laugh because I was just so stressed out and uncomfortable.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:35.168)
I wonder what do you ladies think about is that maybe more likely to be the highly sensitive child? I wonder.
Dr. Jeanne (32:45.121)
I mean, I think it could be again, like I didn't know anything about HSPs until my late twenties also. And that's when a lot of things also started making sense to me. And for me personally, I definitely think it could be because I picked up on these atmospheres a lot quicker than others. And that for me, many times led to increasing the narrative.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:03.412)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (33:11.395)
to something is wrong with me. I'm so sensitive. I'm overreacting. Why am I so sensitive? Nobody else notices things. I'm imagining it. And it was very real. mean, like there was for sure an atmosphere and people were for sure walking on eggshells and you for sure didn't know what to say or when to say. And you started getting into that thing where you're starting to almost preempt things and trying to see into the future.
Okay, what kind of mood are they in? Is this going to upset them? Is this going to make it worse or better? You know, is whatever makes them feel good available or unavailable and how's that going to affect things? So for me, that leans very much into what an HSP just naturally also, you know, associates a lot of life with.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:48.011)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:57.233)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. I mean, and truly, if you think about any child can take on any role, it's more so dependent on what the whole system creates and often what the caregivers create. If they see something that they liken to themselves in one child, they may identify that as more the golden child. So I definitely don't want to take the onus away from the caregivers who create the dynamic and the structure.
But my curiosity was if left to our own devices is, you know, a highly sensitive person who does, as you were saying, Dr. Jean, pull in the environment, but then realize, ooh, if I take on this mascot role and lighten the mood, everyone's a little bit more OK. So, yeah, I'd be so curious.
Andrea (34:47.538)
that's what every but but I feel like that's kind of what every role is doing to an extent. Right? Why just mean that they're they're playing the role to try to fix and you know, placate to to the situation, right? So each role is doing that, like, the scapegoat is trying to bring the attention to them to distract from everything else. The hero child is trying
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:52.606)
Ooh, please unpack that.
Dr. Jeanne (35:02.155)
A piece.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:04.306)
Mm -hmm
Andrea (35:10.47)
make it seem like everything's perfect from the outside. You the lost child thinks that if they just stay away and hidden and stay out of the way that they're not creating any chaos. So I think that every, I mean, that is what is the core wound of an adult child or of growing up in a dysfunctional family system is like receiving the message that who you are isn't okay. And I need to be who I need to be in order to be loved and accepted and also save my family.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:13.131)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:35.126)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:39.509)
Yeah, no, that's an awesome
Dr. Jeanne (35:40.761)
And isn't it interesting, literally everything you just said and mentioned in every one of those categories leads straight back to avoidance. Like you're avoiding the situation, you're avoiding the uncomfortableness, whether it is by trying to be the hero child or the lost child or the mascot, you're avoiding, avoiding, avoiding, which can lead back to the conversation we had with Jessica Baum on avoidance and attachment.
Andrea (36:05.5)
I don't know if it's really avoiding versus it's desperately trying to survive and desperately trying to get love and acceptance, right? I think it's more so really rooted in my life is at risk here. I we don't consciously think that, but it really is rooted in a survival instinct. And then that's why it feels like I'm going to die.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:09.281)
protecting.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:14.837)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:20.747)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:33.622)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (36:33.82)
when a guy doesn't text me back. It literally feels like my life is at risk, you
Dr. Jeanne (36:34.211)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:39.413)
Right. Well, I agree with both of you because if we think about a different version of avoiding, so I think when we all hear avoiding, we think of it being a conscious thing. But when we look at attachment patterns, it's a way to protect yourself. right, like I'm not going to purposely keep my hand on the burning, you know, pot, so to speak. I'm going to avoid the pain by pulling my hand away. And so I think when
Andrea (36:49.362)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (36:54.748)
Yes, absolutely.
Andrea (37:02.238)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:09.311)
And I think it's very compassionate because if you yourself or any of us tend to check out or avoid or try not to feel certain pain, because we didn't say this earlier, but I do agree with you wholeheartedly, Andrea, that we need to recognize what's happening, like learn, gain the knowledge, and then from there we can finally like engage in it. And that's the biggest thing.
And one of the most difficult things is staying really present and saying this hurts, but it's safe and I can stay in it and it's okay. And I don't mean an abusive relationship, folks. I mean our own internal discomforts or, you know, trying to unpack the fear of abandonment, for instance. But I think that's such a hard thing as I'm talking about this, realizing if you grew
Dr. Jeanne (37:43.885)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:06.165)
with this kind of dysfunction. How do we know when to leave something or avoid something because it's not good for us versus how do we know to stay with something and be present with something because it's part of the growing process? That's really complex. Either, really. mean,
Andrea (38:27.134)
Do you mean a relationship or feelings?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:33.471)
Like marriage is not always comfortable, for instance.
Andrea (38:33.48)
I don't know, I
Dr. Jeanne (38:36.345)
Yeah, that's true.
Andrea (38:38.238)
I don't think that there's probably a, I don't really think that there's probably an answer for that, right? I think it just is dependent. I just thought about something that happened since we last spoke, Amelia, that I think would be really interesting for your listeners to hear about, related to me being the scapegoat in my family. So both of my parents are inactive alcoholism now, and it is just, I mean, they're nuts.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:43.113)
I know. No, it's incredibly complex.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:06.593)
Hmm.
Andrea (39:07.284)
Like they're so, so, so sick. And I'm an only child too, which I also feel like played a kind of a role in what I'm doing. But so my mother's alcoholism is very far progressed, which is, it's really devastating because, you know, growing up, my mom was like a binge periodic drinker. like months would go by without anything happening. And when she wasn't drinking, like 90 % of time she was like the most.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:11.649)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:23.35)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:30.913)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (39:36.34)
wonderful and amazing mom. And what I haven't mentioned is that when I started acting out at 12, that fixed my family. Like my mom stopped drinking and my parents stopped fighting as much because they had to come together to deal with me. But then once I got sober, it's been a downward spiral for the both of them. They picked up where they left off. And especially since I started doing this work, this adult child stuff work in 2018. And now my dad's definitely.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:38.603)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (39:51.661)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (40:04.978)
you know, an alcoholic too. And so, you know, he the times my mom drank the most was when he went out of town for work, which was often and he knew that she was driving me around drunk. You know, when he was in town, he was having me search the house for her booze with him. We would go into the liquor cabinet and use like a paint stick to like measure and monitor like each level of the liquor bottles. I'm eight years old. You know, it was kidding. And so
Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:25.961)
my gosh. Yeah, you should not have have to have done that. Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (40:31.158)
Mm -mm.
Andrea (40:34.758)
you know, his higher power is money and work and stuff like that. But so, yeah, so it's just been like a downward spiral for my, I don't know how my mom's alive, you know, like she's broken ribs, she's, you know, broken her heel. So they have a, they live in Tahoe in the summertime and they live in Florida the other half of the year. And this is the first year that my mom didn't want to go out this summer. And it's really because she
Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:44.768)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (41:01.352)
doesn't even really leave the house anymore. Like she just is, she's not cooking, she's not cleaning, she's just drinking. And so a couple of weeks ago, my dad was in town and we were having dinner and my mom had gone into the hospital the night before for pancreatitis. So we go to dinner and I've really had to, through a lot of practice, through a lot of therapy,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:21.928)
geez.
Andrea (41:30.248)
figure out how to have a relationship with them that works for me. Because it was probably around six years sober is when I stopped trying to save my mom. Like I was convinced my entire life that there was something that I could do or say to get my mom sober. And it was around six years sober that I realized that I couldn't. And...
Dr. Jeanne (41:51.543)
Hmm.
Andrea (41:56.358)
And so now the way I like to describe it is that like, I don't participate in the dysfunction, but I also don't participate in the family denial. So while I won't, I won't ignore the elephant in the room, but I won't try to carry the elephant out of the room, if that makes sense.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:13.54)
I love that. Absolutely.
Andrea (42:16.212)
And so, you know, like I've put up a lot of boundaries with my family. you know, there's been periods of time and they've also gotten very, very abusive towards me over the past few years too. Like they'll take any opportunity that they can to put me back in that scapegoat role, but it's all bark and no bite, you know? And what I will say is that like, they could really have gone scorched earth on me for having this podcast and they haven't. Like they're proud of me in the way that they can be. They are proud of me. They can't listen to
Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:27.121)
I'm sorry to hear
Andrea (42:46.376)
they're proud of me. so I go out to dinner with my dad and my mom has gone into the hospital the night before and halfway through the dinner he goes, I want to talk to you about your mom. And he goes on this long speech. Now, mind you, he never got angry and started to yell, which was a first, but about how it really upsets him and hurts him how I'm not closer with my
and how I'm not more of a support to her and that he knows that she, he knows that they have their flaws. He's an alcoholic too. I mean, he doesn't have the consequences like she does, although he's starting to have the health consequences. basically like, putting it on me, like, it really is upsetting that you're not more of a support for your mom. And really what does that come down to? It's
Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:27.819)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:37.974)
Yeah.
Andrea (43:44.562)
He doesn't want to feel guilty that he like goes to Tahoe for months at a, you know, and leaves her there when really it's so reckless. But so he says this to me and he goes, what do you think about that? And I mean, my body, like I just went into like, like my legs just were like on electricity. Like I just go into this trauma response and it was such a beautiful example of, of my growth because I really paused, like I really paused and thought about like
Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:49.174)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (44:14.948)
what do I want to say here because he will use my words against me, you know, like he will. And so I just sat there for a little while and I said to him, I said, you made my mom's alcoholism my responsibility when I was seven years old and you're doing it to me again. And he just kept going on about how he's just trying to bring the family together.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:19.019)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:35.881)
Ugh, good for you.
Andrea (44:44.22)
and he just wants us to be closer. And I said, you know what? I said, you know how we can be closer? How about you stop drinking? How about you guys both stop drinking? And his response to me in every time was essentially just like, well, you should be able to deal with it. You should be able to handle it. I've had to deal with my brother's alcoholism my whole life, blah, blah, blah. And he goes, it really hurts me.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:57.141)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:04.97)
No, you should not.
Andrea (45:14.174)
that you're not closer with your mother. And I said, it really hurts me to see both of my parents die from alcoholism. And it was like the most fucked up, like insane, like such a perfect example of what my whole life. And it's like, it's so insidious in my family, right? Because like my parents
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:22.186)
my god, good for you. Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:29.313)
So manipulative.
Andrea (45:38.586)
always told me that they loved me. They've never really been verbally abusive except until recently. Like they've never told me that I'm a piece of shit. They've been wonderful parents in most respects, but the abuse and the trauma was so insidious, so insidious. And it's like, no wonder, like it's no wonder I've turned out like the way that I am. The message that I received so young was like, you have two options. You either,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:43.979)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:54.603)
Right.
Andrea (46:08.208)
submit and tolerate the untolerable, accept the unacceptable if you want to be loved and accepted, or you become the problem so then that we don't have to look at our problems.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (46:19.306)
Hmm.
my goodness. I literally got chills when you told me what you said to him. I can still feel the electricity. Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (46:25.379)
Yeah. Yeah. Well done. Yeah.
Andrea (46:27.482)
It was mind blowing. And I was waiting for him to turn because there's been a few times where like we'd and he will and I I said that to him. said, I'm very concerned that you're going to turn. You're going to blow up at me in a few days. You and I said, I said, you don't get it. And he was willing to be like, yeah, you're right. I don't I probably don't get it. And I'm just like, I said, you don't you don't get it. I said, you guys are in.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (46:50.849)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (46:56.468)
act of alcoholism for 30 plus years. It's like, I've been sober for 15 years. I'm not the crazy one here. I said, you have to realize that your brain is a little warped here.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (46:59.819)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (47:05.898)
No.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (47:09.813)
Right. Well, and unfortunately, he's like speaking a completely different language than you right now. I mean, you're speaking a language of healing and awareness and he's speaking. What I see so often is like if someone gets to the point where they stay at their adult child bottom for decades and decades and decades, when things don't go a way that works for them, they get desperate and they will scramble and they will manipulate to whatever degree they can. And that was exactly what happened to you with your father.
I am so sorry you had to have that experience.
Andrea (47:41.576)
He was going flying back. My mom was getting out of the hospital on one was that was a Saturday. He she was supposed to get out of the hospital that Monday and then he was flying back to Tahoe on Tuesday because his friend from Bible study and his son are flying out there to go golfing. Like it's just it's fucking nuts. It's so nuts and that's part of it too. When you have money to keep things all together like you can just pretend
There aren't any problems. But what I will say is like, I know that they love me. Like they're not bad people. They're so sick. And I really feel so devastated for my mom, especially because I just see all the unresolved trauma. Cause she's tried to get sober many times. And I know the reason that she's never been able to is because she's never been able to look at the trauma at all.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (48:21.291)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (48:26.707)
Right.
Dr. Jeanne (48:27.161)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (48:33.579)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (48:39.467)
Mm -hmm. Gosh.
Andrea (48:41.202)
So it's devastating. It's this very bittersweet situation of like, God, it's so tragic. It's so sad. But then yet at the same time, it's like, they were meant to be my parents because I was supposed to create this podcast. I was supposed to be a message for this cause.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (48:57.757)
Mm -hmm. You know
And I appreciate so much how honest you are. And you just gave such a good example of how you're able to like put that out into the world because I guarantee someone just heard what you said and literally saw themself and felt themself sitting in that space, in that room, in that conversation because they've had similar conversations or they have felt the same desperation of what is going on.
Dr. Jeanne (49:06.114)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (49:12.419)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (49:29.781)
Gosh, I feel like I could talk to you for, we could literally talk to you forever, but I had one kind of one question if we think we're talking about adult child. I was curious if you could say something to your child part, that internal part, something you wish that she knew that you're now aware of. What would that be?
Andrea (49:49.928)
It's so interesting. The day after that happened, I was laying out at my pool and I started getting so angry about the conversation. I was talking to my inner child. was like, I'm like, am so sorry. was like, you did not... Usually it kind of comes from a comfort place, but this time was like, I was getting angry for her. I was getting really angry for her. But what do I tell her? I'm like, I'm so sorry that you believed.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (49:56.799)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (50:05.063)
Mmm.
Andrea (50:19.998)
those lies about you, you know, I'm so sorry that you ever felt like you were the problem or that you weren't good enough, you know, that there was something inherently wrong with you. And the thing with me is because it was all so insidious, none of those thoughts were ever conscious. I think that when the abuse is more blatant and when you have parents that are verbally abusive or saying certain things,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (50:31.457)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (50:37.707)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (50:49.8)
I think there's a lot more of a conscious awareness of like, there's something wrong with me. Like not for me. was like consciously I'm like, I'm the shit. And then like subconsciously I'm like accepting horrible treatment and relationships. you know, it's, it's, it's, I mean, I've, where's my picture of my inner child. Like, I mean, I will look at her and just tell her like, I am so sorry for, for all that you went through.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (51:00.951)
Mm hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (51:09.281)
huh
Dr. Amelia Kelley (51:14.709)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (51:17.555)
Awwww, she's so
Dr. Amelia Kelley (51:18.261)
Yeah.
Andrea (51:18.36)
And you didn't deserve that. You did not deserve that. There's nothing wrong with you. And I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that you went through what you went through and that you ever thought that you were the problem or you let them do that. Like it's so screwed
Dr. Amelia Kelley (51:21.366)
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (51:31.605)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (51:36.651)
Yeah. That is perfect. I mean, it's perfect because sometimes it's less about here's the things I know and more about here is my compassion that I so strongly feel for you.
Andrea (51:54.576)
It is. It's so sad, you know, but it's also
Dr. Amelia Kelley (51:55.369)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (52:01.035)
Mm -hmm.
Andrea (52:02.93)
It's also like understanding that our parents aren't like, at least I don't think so, our parents aren't evil. Like they're a product of their own environment as well. And I don't know people say like, why do some people get it and other people don't? Like I really, I don't know. It really does almost seem like a luck thing. You know what I mean? But.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (52:10.187)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (52:10.743)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (52:23.691)
Well, we can all be grateful for you and the other cycle breakers who are getting in touch with that part of them and knowing what it means to be an adult child. And I just am so grateful that you came and shared not only some of the cool things you've learned from guests, your expertise, but really truly your honest experience. And I could feel your feelings leaping through.
Dr. Jeanne (52:24.672)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (52:41.921)
Yeah, thank
Dr. Jeanne (52:47.201)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (52:52.363)
the screen today and I just so appreciate that. Yeah, thank you so much Andrea.
Andrea (52:54.376)
Thanks for having me.
Dr. Jeanne (52:55.169)
Yeah, thank you so much. So where can our guests find you if they want to learn more about you, your community?
Andrea (53:02.9)
Although my podcast is everywhere, I highly recommend going to listen to my very first episode. So I briefly touched upon the tale of two Bryans, but you can hear the full story with all the juicy details. No, I did not hold back at all. The first 10 or so episodes is where I really go through my story. So I think it helps listeners connect with
Dr. Amelia Kelley (53:24.009)
Yeah.
Andrea (53:28.34)
And then you can find me on Instagram and TikTok at adultchildpod. And then I also have an online support community. It's called The Shit Show. there is ACA, Adult Children of Alcoholic and Dysfunctional Families, 12 step meetings. But what I found was that they're a little doom and gloomy, a little depressing at times.
Dr. Jeanne (53:39.672)
Cool.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (53:51.812)
mmm
Andrea (53:53.684)
So I created my own community. We refer to ourselves as recovering shit shows and similar to kind of 12 step, but a little bit more personality and fun and just a way for people to connect with other people who are doing this really hard work of healing, but also wanna have a little fun and laugh sometimes as well too. So that's called the shit show. And on Saturdays I
Dr. Jeanne (54:00.513)
That's so cool.
Dr. Jeanne (54:18.903)
Yeah. Thank you so much. We'll put all of
Andrea (54:22.708)
episodes where you can hear like some of our groups are here people met community members share their stories too. So yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (54:29.787)
that's really cool. I love that.
Dr. Jeanne (54:32.867)
Thank you. We'll put that all in the episode description. We're so happy to have had you. Thank you so much for sharing your story. Thanks. Bye.
Andrea (54:41.728)
That was great guys.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (54:43.044)
Yeah, thank you.
Dr. Jeanne (54:43.363)
Thank you so much.